file Molotov vs Combat Ends

03 Feb 2020 17:56 #98877 by Sambomb
Does combat ends resolves first then Molotov "equip" strike?
Example: Arika bleeds, Baron Samedi blocks.
Arika strike: Staredown
Baron strike: Molotov cocktail
After strikes, Baron plays Superior Relentless reaper to continue combat.
Does he have a molotov in the second round or not?

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Prince ID #510

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03 Feb 2020 21:03 - 03 Feb 2020 21:04 #98878 by Ankha
Replied by Ankha on topic Molotov vs Combat Ends
Staredown at PRE resolves first, ending combat. Molotov Cocktail doesn't resolve and goes to the ash heap.

rulebook wrote: Combat Ends. This effect ends combat immediately. This type of strike is always the first to resolve, even before a strike done with first strike, and it ends combat before other strikes or other strike resolution effects are resolved. Combat ends is effective at any range. Combat ends is not affected by a dodge, since dodge only cancels effects that are directed at the dodging minion.


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Last edit: 03 Feb 2020 21:04 by Ankha.

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03 Feb 2020 21:03 #98879 by Kilrauko
Replied by Kilrauko on topic Molotov vs Combat Ends
No, the Combat end effect specify end to combat before other strikes or other strike resolution effects are resolved. Relentless reaper states second round is started but it does not allow resolution of other strikes or strike resolution effects. It does not cancel combat end card it behaves like Telepathic tracking.

If the combat end card had continue action effect Relentless reaper would cancel only that part of it, but the S:CE still resolves it's generic effects related strike resolution. Unless that has been changed in which case I'm sure to be corrected on it.

http://www.vekn.net/rulebook wrote: 6.4.5. Strike Effects
...
Combat Ends. This effect ends combat immediately. This type of strike is always the first to resolve, even before a strike done with first strike, and it ends combat before other strikes or other strike resolution effects are resolved. Combat ends is effective at any range. Combat ends is not affected by a dodge, since dodge only cancels effects that are directed at the dodging minion.



http://www.vekn.net/images/stories/downloads/cardlist.txt wrote: Name: Molotov Cocktail
[Anarchs:C, SP:PwN3]
Cardtype: Combat
Ranged strike: put this card on this minion; it becomes a weapon equipment that can strike: 2R aggravated damage, not usable the round it is put in play. Burn after use or at the end of combat.
Artist: Richard Thomas


Name: Relentless Reaper
[LK:4]
Cardtype: Combat
Discipline: Thanatosis/Fortitude
[for] Prevent 1 damage.
[thn] Press.
[THN] Only usable if both combatants are still ready and combat would end. Instead, burn 1 blood to start a new round.
Artist: Alejandro F. Giraldo


Name: Telepathic Tracking
[SW:U, LoB:PO2, Third:U, SP:DoF3]
Cardtype: Combat
Cost: 1 blood
Discipline: Auspex
[aus] Press, only usable to continue combat. If another round of combat occurs, this vampire gets 1 optional maneuver that round.
[AUS] Only usable {if} both combatants are still ready and combat would end. {Instead,} start a new round{}.
Artist: Mike Danza


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03 Feb 2020 21:18 #98880 by Sambomb
Replied by Sambomb on topic Molotov vs Combat Ends

Kilrauko wrote: No, the Combat end effect specify end to combat before other strikes or other strike resolution effects are resolved. Relentless reaper states second round is started but it does not allow resolution of other strikes or strike resolution effects. It does not cancel combat end card it behaves like Telepathic tracking.

If the combat end card had continue action effect Relentless reaper would cancel only that part of it, but the S:CE still resolves it's generic effects related strike resolution. Unless that has been changed in which case I'm sure to be corrected on it.

http://www.vekn.net/rulebook wrote: 6.4.5. Strike Effects
...
Combat Ends. This effect ends combat immediately. This type of strike is always the first to resolve, even before a strike done with first strike, and it ends combat before other strikes or other strike resolution effects are resolved. Combat ends is effective at any range. Combat ends is not affected by a dodge, since dodge only cancels effects that are directed at the dodging minion.

Yes, but "not always"
Because you can Dodge a combat ends effect like Catatonic Fear damage.
And like dodge, equip with the Molotov dont affect the opposing minion.

Thank you and Ankha for the answer.

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Prince ID #510

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03 Feb 2020 22:14 #98883 by Kilrauko
Replied by Kilrauko on topic Molotov vs Combat Ends

Sambomb wrote: Yes, but "not always"
Because you can Dodge a combat ends effect like Catatonic Fear damage.
And like dodge, equip with the Molotov dont affect the opposing minion.

Thank you and Ankha for the answer.


Ah now that brings me back, because I remember the time when S:CE fizzled Dodge resolution, long time ago...

Following is a remembering of a past and not related to the current rules question answer that Ankha sniped me with.

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/1uKDkopJTRo/4Unyi6NRCd8J

LSJ wrote in 2002 wrote: > > 2) S:CE will prevent the dodge from resolving. [LSJ 25-SEP-1998]
>
> Gideon plays Catatonic Fear, Marianna Dodges. Combat ends, Marianna
> takes 1.
>
> Correct?

Yes.


I seem to remember that ruling going away during my previous years as I remember stutter-stepping with Thetmes against Catatonic Fear and not taking damage between the psyche cycles.


https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/v2cz5Uksbdw/n06wpekda7MJ

LSJ wrote in 2008 wrote: > Related: It's my understanding if you dodge a Catatonic Fear, combat
> obviously still ends, but you "dodge" the negative side-effect of getting 1
> damage. Assuming my understanding is correct, would you be able to dodge, so
> to speak, the placing of Unholy Penance (which is a negative side-effect of
> the S:CE) on your minion?

Dodge protects the dodger from the opposing minion's strike, yes.


Certainly by 2008 there had been a change in rationale of strike resolution and dodge had became the less a strike and more "a defensive protection" it is to this day. I do agree rulebook as written and quoted without later LSJ or RTR etc rulings makes one come to conclusion where Strike: Dodge does not resolve when against S:CE. Perhaps it's something the updaters of the rulebook can solve with simple addition/change in the text of Dodge & S:CE to bring them in line with the current strike:dodge & s:ce interaction.

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03 Feb 2020 23:16 #98886 by jamesatzephyr

Kilrauko wrote: Perhaps it's something the updaters of the rulebook can solve with simple addition/change in the text of Dodge & S:CE to bring them in line with the current strike:dodge & s:ce interaction.


The detailed play summary does that: www.vekn.net/detailed-play-summary
2. Resolve strikes. [6.4.3.2]

a. Strikes resolve in the following order. If both strikes are in the same class, then they resolve simultaneously.

NOTE: Dodge doesn't resolve; it cancels the effect of the opposing strike on the dodging minion and non-retainer cards on him. [6.4.5]

i. Strike: Combat Ends. [6.4.5] (go to step E). Any other effect from this strike is applied after combat ends (except unlocking, which is normally done before combat ends by card text).
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