file off-turn Nocturn

07 Oct 2020 05:51 #100862 by Rynkle
Replied by Rynkle on topic off-turn Nocturn
"The embrace
+1 stealth action. Requires a non-sterile vampire.Put this card in play. It becomes a 1-capacity non-unique vampire of the same clan and sect as the acting vampire, and must hunt this turn."

Then this means the embrace can hunt during the turn you create it with another vampire with Enkil cog ?
The following user(s) said Thank You: ReverendRevolver, Boris The Blade, Timo

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07 Oct 2020 08:41 #100865 by Timo
Replied by Timo on topic off-turn Nocturn

kschaefer wrote: If you want to have Nocturn's only be able to act on their turn or prevent additional recruit actions, then you're going to need to be wordier and more specific about what the current turn is.


It is NOT possible to have every single things written clearly without any wrong interpretations possible on each and every cards.

It is why we need rulings in the first place.

And no, having a text "he can act the turn it is recruited" does not erase every single lines about actions in the rulebook.

It can act "if nothing prevents it to do so" no old text pentex nor anything like that or for example not being your turn...

The text highlighted is here to supersede the rules about allies not being allowed to act the turn they are recruited. It can be misleading about if it erases other rules but it had been ruled that it did not.

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07 Oct 2020 11:55 - 07 Oct 2020 12:05 #100866 by Kilrauko
Replied by Kilrauko on topic off-turn Nocturn

Rynkle wrote: "The embrace
+1 stealth action. Requires a non-sterile vampire.Put this card in play. It becomes a 1-capacity non-unique vampire of the same clan and sect as the acting vampire, and must hunt this turn."

Then this means the embrace can hunt during the turn you create it with another vampire with Enkil cog ?


"Must" and "can" have different meanings in english language.

A vampire that can hunt, has the option to hunt or not. They have a choice and are able to do it. Can act means just that, "is able to."

A vampire that must hunt, has no choice but neither is he somehow granted the possibility. "Must" does not include "is able to" part but instead "if able, then". What's more, if they are unable to hunt for whatever reason (usually multiple different mandatory actions) but also unability to act on other methuselahs turn, the action fizzles cannot be attempted as one cannot attempt what one cannot do per LSJ. However, if the embrace is malkavian, and madness network is in play, that embrace vampire *must* hunt as soon as the order of play allows the controlling methuselah to declare the action. Thanks to Madness Network, they *can* take actions on other turns and thanks to embrace's text, they "must" choose to take that action.

Trust in Jan Pieterzoon.
Last edit: 07 Oct 2020 12:05 by Kilrauko. Reason: Correcting fizzles to "cannot be attempted".

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07 Oct 2020 12:34 - 07 Oct 2020 12:43 #100868 by Timo
Replied by Timo on topic off-turn Nocturn

Kilrauko wrote: However, if the embrace is malkavian, and madness network is in play, that embrace vampire *must* hunt as soon as the order of play allows the controlling methuselah to declare the action. Thanks to Madness Network, they *can* take actions on other turns and thanks to embrace's text, they "must" choose to take that action.


Actually, I think that a malkavian embrace being created in someone else turn is not forced to hunt.

It is exactly the same with any empty malkavian.

They can take actions. And if they decide to use this option, the only one they can perform is hunting.

The "must hunt" in embrace card text makes it a mandatory action on the same level as a vampire being empty and unlocked "must hunt" (we could look into the case with an out of turn spirit marionnette on a malkavian under madness network : the malk "must bleed" but is allowed to "not act" instead).

To come back to Nocturn being allowed to act on someone else turn its card text being seen as erasing the rulebook in regard to whose turn it is :

With the same idea, we could have the following situation :
I play a nocturn with my predator having a gran madre di dio in play and so the nocturn comes into play locked.

But it "can act the turn it is recruited" so it should be allowed to act even if it is locked ?
Last edit: 07 Oct 2020 12:43 by Timo. Reason: Example for clarity

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07 Oct 2020 14:41 - 07 Oct 2020 14:44 #100869 by Ankha
Replied by Ankha on topic off-turn Nocturn

Timo wrote: With the same idea, we could have the following situation :
I play a nocturn with my predator having a gran madre di dio in play and so the nocturn comes into play locked.

But it "can act the turn it is recruited" so it should be allowed to act even if it is locked ?

Good point.

Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
Last edit: 07 Oct 2020 14:44 by Ankha.

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07 Oct 2020 15:02 #100870 by Palamedes
Replied by Palamedes on topic off-turn Nocturn
To shorten the story, if there is no such sentence in the rules, it should be added:

In 6. Minion Phase:
During your minion phase, you may have your minions take actions. Your minions can take actions only in your minion phase.

...at the end of the paragraph:
Some rare effects can allow your minions to take actions in someone else’s minion phase. Such effects must explicitly state that your minions may take actions in other Methuselah's minion phase, since you have no minion phase in their turn.


In 6.1.5. Recruit Ally (+1 stealth):
If the action is successful, the ally is placed in your ready region, but it cannot act this turn (and the cost, if any, is paid). If it can act this turn for some reason, it only applies in your minion phase.

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