file off-turn Nocturn

11 Oct 2020 14:54 #100910 by Ankha
Replied by Ankha on topic off-turn Nocturn

Bloodartist wrote:

Ankha wrote: By construction, the rulebook describes what the player can do, not what the player cannot do (unless it needs to put restrictions on something else it allows to do, for instance "minions can bleed" but "minions cannot bleed twice"), so there is no reason to write down "You cannot perform actions during other Methuselah's turns": if nothing allows it in the rulebook, it is forbidden, by default.


Indeed. However there is this little thing ahead of all other rules:

1.4. The Golden Rule for Cards
Whenever the cards contradict the rules, the cards take precedence.


It is not specified what rules cards can or cannot break. Therefore it can be assumed that cardtext can overrule all rules.

Sure.

Bloodartist wrote: Saying that the aforementioned action rules could not be overruled by cardtext is paradoxical and confusing. At least I have no clue what rules can or cannot be broken by cardtext, if its not all of them.

Please re-read the thread and quote the relevant part. I don't know how you came to this conclusion.

Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
12 Oct 2020 08:37 - 12 Oct 2020 08:42 #100913 by Timo
Replied by Timo on topic off-turn Nocturn

inm8 wrote:
I do make a difference between the two because language wise there is one. This is what i have tried to convey. The ruling has sided with intention of design an not by the written word which is bound to happen and should if it is considered game breaking but it is also what makes it unclear for people that aren´t experts on the rulings which aren´t always the easiest to find.
The best would obviously be that the card texts conveyed exactly what it intended but it isn´t always the case. The scope that I'm suggesting is what i have tired to described that "this turn" on its own doesn't actually allow you to act out of turn but that it allows the continued acting in anyone's turn which would have had to be initiated by cards of the like of Enkil Cog for it to be able to happen out of turn...this is not going to be the most common of things and thus considered at the moment as probably not game breaking.

Ankha wrote:
To summarize:
There are multiple rules preventing an ally from acting during a turn:
1/ it's not your minion phase
2/ the ally is locked
3/ the ally has been recruited this turn

The sentence "Nocturn can act the turn it is recruited" only removes restriction 3/.

I agree it's opened to discussion (6 pages already), but that's the official clarification.


The current official stand and rulings are clear. As i wrote above this is where i mean that the Nocturn text doesn´t by text alone only overrule nr 3 but also nr 1 as long as initiated by the likes of Enkil Cog.


Any number of clarifications on a card text could NOT covers every single LITTLE things in the game.

For example, the actual card text of nocturn could be understood that it could act during my discard phase because it is "the turn it is recruited" and by the golden rule of cards, nocturn card text takes priority above the rulebook. But no, it doesn't work this way and I don't see the need of putting that restriction on any card text nor the rulebook.

And I emphasized the "little" in my sentence because let be honest, we are speaking of 2 allies who "can act the turn it is recruited" : Nocturn and Infernal Servitor and 2 cards which could allow to be recruited in another minion phase : Enkil Cog and Madness Network.

And we have a total of 0 malkavian with :obt: and a total of 1 malkavian with :dai: (Petaniqua and she doesn't have any easy access to unlock).

And using the unique out of turn action of a 10+ cap vampire with Enkil Cog to recruit a Nocturn or an Infernal Servitor is NOT something that would happen more than once in a thousand games...

So I guess I understand the points made which are (if I understand correctly) :
1) it is not perfectly clear with only the card text and the rule book if the Nocturn is allowed to act OoT
2) it would not be gamebreaking to have it ruled that it would allow nocturn to act OoT

And it had been answered (at length) :
1) yes but it had been clarified by a ruling like a thousand other points in this game that can't be put crystal clear in rules or card text
2) no it would not but it has been thought of by the rule authority and ruled otherwise.

Regards...
Last edit: 12 Oct 2020 08:42 by Timo. Reason: Typo

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
12 Oct 2020 17:43 #100916 by inm8
Replied by inm8 on topic off-turn Nocturn

Timo wrote: Any number of clarifications on a card text could NOT covers every single LITTLE things in the game.


Agree with you on this that it isn´t possible for everything but in this case I'm of the opinion that the text should be taken for what it says.

Timo wrote: For example, the actual card text of nocturn could be understood that it could act during my discard phase because it is "the turn it is recruited" and by the golden rule of cards, nocturn card text takes priority above the rulebook. But no, it doesn't work this way and I don't see the need of putting that restriction on any card text nor the rulebook.


This is exactly what I'm saying that it should be able to do if you had a way of performing the recruit action during either your own or someone else's discard phase (which as far as i know doesn´t exist) or any other phase for that matter.

Timo wrote: And I emphasized the "little" in my sentence because let be honest, we are speaking of 2 allies who "can act the turn it is recruited" : Nocturn and Infernal Servitor and 2 cards which could allow to be recruited in another minion phase : Enkil Cog and Madness Network.

And we have a total of 0 malkavian with :obt: and a total of 1 malkavian with :dai: (Petaniqua and she doesn't have any easy access to unlock).

And using the unique out of turn action of a 10+ cap vampire with Enkil Cog to recruit a Nocturn or an Infernal Servitor is NOT something that would happen more than once in a thousand games...


There are more cards (some below) than just the mentioned two that use the wording of being able to act or do something "this turn" without mentioning further restrictions but which when related to acting are dependent of the likes of Enkil Cog or Madness Network (in the case of Nocturn at superior, only the first one would be dependent of ex Enkil Cog, it would allow further Nocturn to be recruited for an additional cost). It´s because of this dependency that it wouldn´t be game breaking.

Dreams of the Sphinx
Ennoia's Theater
The Embrace
Thin-Blooded Seer
Tumnimos
Waters of Duat

Timo wrote: So I guess I understand the points made which are (if I understand correctly) :
1) it is not perfectly clear with only the card text and the rule book if the Nocturn is allowed to act OoT

And it had been answered (at length) :
1) yes but it had been clarified by a ruling like a thousand other points in this game that can't be put crystal clear in rules or card text
2) no it would not but it has been thought of by the rule authority and ruled otherwise.


It would be clear, in my opinion, if the rulings aligned with the literal meaning of the text instead of contradicting it by aligning it with the intention of design (for some cards).
There are plenty of cards with the text "During your xxxxx phase", limiting when those cards can be used which hasn't been the case on the above cards, clearly indicating when a card have had the need to be restricted to ones own turn/phases.

If the text of Nocturn was to convey the intention of design it should have said : {During your minion phase Nocturn can act the turn it is recruited.}

Always easy to point out after the fact but the point that I'm trying to make is more how the handling of "this turn" cards should be handled and not so much arguing for Nocturn specifically.

Ankha wrote: I agree it's opened to discussion (6 pages already), but that's the official clarification.


Doing just that trying to influence the direction of handling of "this turn" cards in a way I believe to be good for the game. If nothing else to provide a different point of view. And who knows...this might open up an interesting design space in the game.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Lönkka

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
12 Oct 2020 18:15 - 12 Oct 2020 18:16 #100917 by Yomyael
Replied by Yomyael on topic off-turn Nocturn
What I find totally confusing in your argument is that you accept, that there are certain things that are not overruled by the "this turn" phrasing. Why should this be restricted to the phase it was recruited in? Why should the rule, that you have to be unlocked to act, not be overruled? None of this is clearly answered by the cardtext.

So there are a lot more subtleties that could arise if one tries to take the wording literally. I have not seen a good argument why one should be more clear than the other. So some ruling seems to be necessary either way - therefore I think following the design intent is better.

Maybe this ruling should added to the General Rulings page, since there are multiple allies with this wording and I think it's possible, we'll see it in the future on more cards.

Prince of Bonn, Germany
Last edit: 12 Oct 2020 18:16 by Yomyael.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Timo

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
12 Oct 2020 22:05 #100918 by inm8
Replied by inm8 on topic off-turn Nocturn

Yomyael wrote: What I find totally confusing in your argument is that you accept, that there are certain things that are not overruled by the "this turn" phrasing. Why should this be restricted to the phase it was recruited in? Why should the rule, that you have to be unlocked to act, not be overruled? None of this is clearly answered by the cardtext.


Don’t know if it is a good argument or not but the reasoning i’m trying to argue for is that:
Because there is a rule that says that “only ready unlocked minions can take an action” there needs to be explicit text that says that you can act while locked.
Because there is a rule that says that “during your minion phase you may have your minions take actions” there needs to be explicit text that says that you can act out of turn.
Because there is no rule that says that “this turn” is limited to your own and if the card text doesn’t have any such restriction it means literally it isn’t limited, also at the same time while the templating of “during your xxxx phase” is commonly used where I have to believe that it has been where deemed as need.

Bottom line of my argument is that if there is a rule for something as per my reasoning there needs to be explicit text overruling it for it to be able to be ignored which in the case of “{Nocturn can act the turn it is recruited.}“:
There is no text saying that it can act while locked and therefore can’t if that is the case.
There is text saying that it can act this turn, without being limited to your own turn or phase, as long as it is the same turn that it was recruited.
The recruitment that enables the text saying “act the turn it is recruited” aka “this turn” doesn’t overrule acting out of turn but enables the continued acting out of turn if initiated by a card saying an action can be taken during someone else’s turn or phase (Enkil Cog and Madness Network explicitly say “during any Methuselah's minion phase). If an action is taken with Enkil Cog during someone else’s minion phase ending with the minion in an unlocked state in itself doesn’t allow continued action taking nor initiation.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Lönkka

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
13 Oct 2020 07:29 #100919 by Timo
Replied by Timo on topic off-turn Nocturn

inm8 wrote: There is no text saying that it can act while locked and therefore can’t if that is the case.
There is text saying that it can act this turn, without being limited to your own turn or phase, as long as it is the same turn that it was recruited.


Sorry but I really don't understand the logic here (I begin to see these arguments as troll).

On the one hand you say card text need to explicitly states that it can act even if locked for it to be allowed.
On the other hand you discard the fact that nocturn card text doesn't explicitly states that it can act during someone else turn and decide that it can...

You can't decide that because Enkil Cog allow a very specific vampire to act OoT, it will allow nocturn to act OoT also...

I'll try to make another similarity :
Grey Thorne uses make the misere "as a vampire with :pot: " in order to enter combat with a vampire and is not blocked.
Grey Thorne would not be allowed to play a taste of vitae "as a vampire" even if it happens in the middle of an action granted by an action card which see him as a vampire.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
Moderators: AnkhaKraus
Time to create page: 0.164 seconds
Powered by Kunena Forum