file off-turn Nocturn

13 Oct 2020 09:32 #100920 by Lönkka
Replied by Lönkka on topic off-turn Nocturn
Ain't there quite a few cards where they've been ruled to work as written (as opposed to designer intent)?

With this it seems to be the other way around.

It is mighty difficult to play the game where you need to know in which cases cards work as written and the instances where they work as designer intended.

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13 Oct 2020 10:49 #100922 by inm8
Replied by inm8 on topic off-turn Nocturn

Timo wrote: Sorry but I really don't understand the logic here (I begin to see these arguments as troll).


Funny how because you don´t agree with something you classify it as trolling when i have done nothing but to try to explain my view without insulting nor name calling anyone. We don´t need to agree on this and it is completely fine by me.

Timo wrote: On the other hand you discard the fact that nocturn card text doesn't explicitly states that it can act during someone else turn and decide that it can...


As explained in my earlier post the part that allows it to act out of turn as per my logical argument is that its text states it can act this turn which doesn´t check for which or whos turn it is and that that text only gets to become relevant to allow continued acting when initiated by a card explicitly saying an action can happen out of turn.

Timo wrote: Grey Thorne uses make the misere "as a vampire with :pot: " in order to enter combat with a vampire and is not blocked.
Grey Thorne would not be allowed to play a taste of vitae "as a vampire" even if it happens in the middle of an action granted by an action card which see him as a vampire.


Really don´t see how this clarifies anything or how this would be the same or similar situation.
The text of Grey Thorne is explicitly limited to that only cards that require one of the specified disciplines would consider him as if he was an Anarch Vampire. This clearly conveys that cards that don't require disciplines or requires disciplines other than the mentioned ones won´t consider Grey Thorne as anything else than what he is which is an ally.
Therefore Taste of Vitae cannot be used as it requires no disciplines to be played and explicitly says this vampire gains blood excluding non-vampires from being able to use it.


Name: Grey Thorne
[TR:R]
Cardtype: Ally
Cost: 2 blood
Unique ghoul with 2 life. 1 strength, 1 bleed. Requires an anarch.
Grey may play cards that require Celerity [cel] or Potence [pot] as an {A}narch vampire.
During your unlock phase, if Grey has only 1 life, any ready anarch may burn a blood to add 1 life to him.
Artist: Matt Dixon

Name: Make the Misere
[AU:C]
Cardtype: Action
Discipline: Celerity/Obfuscate/Potence
Requires an anarch. More than one discipline can be used to play this card. (D) Enter combat with a locked minion.
[cel] This anarch gets 1 optional maneuver during that combat.
[obf] This action is at +1 stealth.
[pot] This anarch gets +1 strength during that combat.
Artist: Grzegorz Bobrowski

Name: Taste of Vitae
[Jyhad:U, VTES:U, SW:PB, CE:U/PB2/PN, BH:PN2, KMW:PAn2, LoB:PO2, Third:PB2, LotN:PG2, KoT:U/PB3/PT3]
Cardtype: Combat
Only usable at the end of a round of combat. Not usable by a vampire being burned or going to torpor.
This vampire gains an amount of blood equal to the amount lost by the opposing vampire to damage during this round.
A vampire may play only one Taste of Vitae each round.
Artist: Pete Venters; Brian LeBlanc
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13 Oct 2020 10:56 #100923 by Timo
Replied by Timo on topic off-turn Nocturn

inm8 wrote:

Timo wrote: Sorry but I really don't understand the logic here (I begin to see these arguments as troll).


Funny how because you don´t agree with something you classify it as trolling when i have done nothing but to try to explain my view without insulting nor name calling anyone. We don´t need to agree on this and it is completely fine by me.


In my mouth, calling someone a troll is not name calling and I apologize if it has been understood this way.

I just don't understand the logic in your arguments (I am not saying there is none).

At this point, I guess we can agree we disagree.

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14 Oct 2020 08:32 #100927 by lip
Replied by lip on topic off-turn Nocturn
The ambiguity of the "can act the turn it is recruited" has been discussed and ruled. I think the ruling makes sense, Ankha's argument were clear and on point. Off-turn Nocturns may not be overpowered, but please also consider that the ruling here must also apply to Infernal Servitor, an already powerful piece of the whole Unnamed/Enkil Cog/Homunculus combo.

Maybe if anyone could come up with a clearer (but not longer) card text to replace the "can act the turn it is recruited" idiom, that would be best, but I have not seen a proposal yet, nor have I one myself.

Infernal Servitor

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14 Oct 2020 18:34 #100930 by inm8
Replied by inm8 on topic off-turn Nocturn

lip wrote: The ambiguity of the "can act the turn it is recruited" has been discussed and ruled. I think the ruling makes sense, Ankha's argument were clear and on point.


Fully agree

Ankha wrote:

Snodig wrote:

Lönkka wrote: Yeah, out of turn Nocturn probably ain't game breaking...

Would be clearer to let them act on the turn they are recruited. You know, because of the card text.

(Also worth noticing is that when recruited out of turn they have shorter life span than usually).


All strong points. I wouldn’t mind it being ruled this way.

I'll consider it.


The fact that the text is ambiguous and that Ankha is considering if to change the ruling or make it more clear (somehow) are good reasons for everyone to present their arguments and points of views which they think are good for the game. Highlighting the pros, cons and any potential loopholes being opened up to break or abuse the game is in everyone's interest.

lip wrote: Off-turn Nocturns may not be overpowered, but please also consider that the ruling here must also apply to Infernal Servitor, an already powerful piece of the whole Unnamed/Enkil Cog/Homunculus combo.

How is this more powerful than having Unnamed acting/bleeding on his own? He can do more damage than Infernal Servitor. Is it because of not risking an encounter with Unnamed him self and another minion?

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14 Oct 2020 19:43 - 14 Oct 2020 20:05 #100932 by Kilrauko
Replied by Kilrauko on topic off-turn Nocturn

lip wrote: ...

Maybe if anyone could come up with a clearer (but not longer) card text to replace the "can act the turn it is recruited" idiom, that would be best, but I have not seen a proposal yet, nor have I one myself. ...


The "not longer" part is a tall order considering "Nocturn can act the turn it is recruited." has to include Nocturn (name), can, act, turn and recruited by default and the rest is needed to form grammatically correct sentence. It's 41 characters in total with spaces included, aka cardspace used.

Shortest addition I can see that is aligned with the ruling and prevents off turn mistakes is "When If recruited on controllers owners turn, Nocturn it can act." yet that still means 52 50 45 40 characters or cardspace, with spaces included ofc.

EDIT: And there it is; "If recruited on owners turn, it can act." shorter version by cheating and removing the name of the card to instead use "it" in similar fashion as say Shambling Hordes does. With Nocturn this can be accomplished by moving sentence "Nocturn can play non-ally cards {requiring} basic Obtenebration [obt] as a vampire." on top and having the follow up sentence with "it" reference that sentence. For Infernal Servitor the task is easier as it's shortened to "servitor" on superior part already and therefore while the inferior part has to be "If recruited on owners turn, Infernal Servitor can act.", the "servitor" bit on superior is shortened to "it" therefore making up card space.

Feel free to ponder what ramifications that proposed wording entails compared to current one.

Trust in Jan Pieterzoon.
Last edit: 14 Oct 2020 20:05 by Kilrauko. Reason: When -> If, controllers ->owners... Nocturn/Infernal servitor -> it....

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