question-circle environmental damage

08 Oct 2020 10:10 #100880 by Lönkka
Replied by Lönkka on topic environmental damage
Sounds like a "Environmental Damage" keyword might be needed?

Or if all reprints of such cards have "Environmental Damage" slipped into the card text then that would be redundant. Even if probably slightly clearer...

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08 Oct 2020 13:19 #100881 by self biased
Replied by self biased on topic environmental damage

Lönkka wrote: Sounds like a "Environmental Damage" keyword might be needed?

Or if all reprints of such cards have "Environmental Damage" slipped into the card text then that would be redundant. Even if probably slightly clearer...


I'm pretty sure i remember Vincent saying that there are no keywords in V:tes. I could be mistaken, though.

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08 Oct 2020 14:19 - 08 Oct 2020 14:21 #100883 by Ankha
Replied by Ankha on topic environmental damage

self biased wrote:

Lönkka wrote: Sounds like a "Environmental Damage" keyword might be needed?

Or if all reprints of such cards have "Environmental Damage" slipped into the card text then that would be redundant. Even if probably slightly clearer...


I'm pretty sure i remember Vincent saying that there are no keywords in V:tes. I could be mistaken, though.

Precisely:
There are no such things labelled as "keyword" in VTES: you won't find the word "keyword" in the rules.
Similarily, you won't find the word "verb" or "adjective" in the rulebook. That doesn't mean that the concept they represent does not exist.

So, "environmental" is not labelled as a keyword but "environmental damage" is described (in the new rulebook) as: "Environmental damage: Any damage not inflicted by a minion either as a strike, or by an explicit effect (“this minion inflicts...”) is environmental. Environmental damage can have no source (such as the damage inflicted by a Carrion Crows) or a non-minion source (such as the damage inflicted by a retainer). Note that environmental damage cannot be dodged, since dodging only protects from the opponent’s strike."

You could call it "adjective" rather than "keyword" for all it matters.

See also www.vekn.net/forum/rules-questions/77213-discussion-card-costs-and-presentation?start=12#92330

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Last edit: 08 Oct 2020 14:21 by Ankha.
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08 Oct 2020 19:28 #100889 by self biased
Replied by self biased on topic environmental damage

Ankha wrote: Precisely:
There are no such things labelled as "keyword" in VTES: you won't find the word "keyword" in the rules.
Similarily, you won't find the word "verb" or "adjective" in the rulebook. That doesn't mean that the concept they represent does not exist.

So, "environmental" is not labelled as a keyword but "environmental damage" is described (in the new rulebook) as: "Environmental damage: Any damage not inflicted by a minion either as a strike, or by an explicit effect (“this minion inflicts...”) is environmental. Environmental damage can have no source (such as the damage inflicted by a Carrion Crows) or a non-minion source (such as the damage inflicted by a retainer). Note that environmental damage cannot be dodged, since dodging only protects from the opponent’s strike."

You could call it "adjective" rather than "keyword" for all it matters.

See also www.vekn.net/forum/rules-questions/77213-discussion-card-costs-and-presentation?start=12#92330


Black Hand and Seraph exist solely to act as keywords for restrictions on other cards. Just because they aren't specifically called keywords but otherwise acts like a keyword, it's a keyword. And V:tes is positively loaded with keywords. Insert Duck syllogism here.

I don't know why there's this aversion to admitting that the game uses keywords when it clearly does. Not to mention that were the rules allowed to lean into using keywords, card text would probably end up clearer. Then again, there is no war in Ba Sing Se.


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09 Oct 2020 06:03 - 09 Oct 2020 06:05 #100892 by Ankha
Replied by Ankha on topic environmental damage

self biased wrote:

Ankha wrote: Precisely:
There are no such things labelled as "keyword" in VTES: you won't find the word "keyword" in the rules.
Similarily, you won't find the word "verb" or "adjective" in the rulebook. That doesn't mean that the concept they represent does not exist.

So, "environmental" is not labelled as a keyword but "environmental damage" is described (in the new rulebook) as: "Environmental damage: Any damage not inflicted by a minion either as a strike, or by an explicit effect (“this minion inflicts...”) is environmental. Environmental damage can have no source (such as the damage inflicted by a Carrion Crows) or a non-minion source (such as the damage inflicted by a retainer). Note that environmental damage cannot be dodged, since dodging only protects from the opponent’s strike."

You could call it "adjective" rather than "keyword" for all it matters.

See also www.vekn.net/forum/rules-questions/77213-discussion-card-costs-and-presentation?start=12#92330


Black Hand and Seraph exist solely to act as keywords for restrictions on other cards. Just because they aren't specifically called keywords but otherwise acts like a keyword, it's a keyword. And V:tes is positively loaded with keywords. Insert Duck syllogism here.

I don't know why there's this aversion to admitting that the game uses keywords when it clearly does.

As a rulemonger, I am trying to avoid using words that don't appear in the rulebook or on the cards, especially when an official term already exist. Black Hand and Seraph are "traits" (as referred to by Vidal, most rulings, and the V5 rulebook). Should I use the word "keyword", it would only lead to confusion and questions such as "what is a keyword? Is it the same as a trait? Is "master" a keyword?" etc.

self biased wrote: Not to mention that were the rules allowed to lean into using keywords, card text would probably end up clearer.

The philosophy for VTES cardtext is less "keywords" and more explicit cardtext. It's a balance between conciseness and complexity that has already been heavily discussed. That doesn't mean new terms will never be added ("wake", "+X hunt" have been added recently).

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Last edit: 09 Oct 2020 06:05 by Ankha.
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09 Oct 2020 09:06 #100896 by Lönkka
Replied by Lönkka on topic environmental damage
Call it "trait", "adjective" or "keyword, but not really keyword, even if it actually is a keyword" or whatever you will but I think having such a thing in this case ("Environmental") clearly indicated would lessen the number on misunderstandings and confusion.

Like "Animal", "Seraph" or whatever.

Then again, if the card text in itself mentions the environmental damage the above is redundant. No need to start adding "keywords" (or whatever) for just the sake of it.

For example, the old Carrion Crows didn't include it in the text but the current one does so everything OK with that card at least and no need to adjust it in any way. Hope all the other cards dealing environmental have/will be adjusted to this format.

Here is the current text:

"Carrion Crows"
Only usable before range is determined. A vampire can play only one Carrion Crows each combat.

ani: The opposing minion takes 1R environmental damage each round this combat during normal strike resolution.

ANI: As above, but for 2R environmental damage."

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