New forum for polls ?

Xaddam wrote:

What Izaak is saying is too true.

Frankly, if a poll has any bearing on the decisions of the VEKN, I would be extremely disappointed. I trust them to make a lot better choices than a forum board. The power we have in the VEKN organization is merely to present suggestions, not choosing between already presented suggestions.

I am completely the opposite: if a poll has no bearing on the VEKN organization, than I am extremely disappointed.

VEKN is self-appointed, and there is no formal way for the player-base to have any say in decisions affecting the future of the game. Personally, I see the value in public participation. When VTES was owned by White Wolf, that wasn't possible. No matter how unpopular a ruling or card design was, there was no recourse. We as players now have a chance to affect the direction of the game, if we organize ourselves correctly. I think what Joscha is doing is very good.

Aaron wrote:

I am completely the opposite: if a poll has no bearing on the VEKN organization, than I am extremely disappointed.

VEKN is self-appointed, and there is no formal way for the player-base to have any say in decisions affecting the future of the game. Personally, I see the value in public participation. When VTES was owned by White Wolf, that wasn't possible. No matter how unpopular a ruling or card design was, there was no recourse. We as players now have a chance to affect the direction of the game, if we organize ourselves correctly. I think what Joscha is doing is very good.

VEKN as a democracy, huh? Yeah, that's pretty idealistic and non-realistic. White-wolf did a great job. They did it by steering the game with professionalism, steering being the key word. A forum filled with people trying to shout over each others' voices is not the professionalism which an organization like this requires.

The VEKN has to draw the line somewhere with player-interaction, else we won't get new cards until some time next decade. I think drawing the line between suggestions (discussing proposed changes to Lilith's Blessing) and decision (voting on whether to change or ban Lilith's Blessing) is a clear and functional place to draw the line.

Just because the game has been released from Evil Corporation X's hands it doesn't mean we should go ballistic. I feel quite the opposite. White-Wolf had been running this for years, the people at VEKN does not have the experience White-Wolf had. They should be more conservative, if anything.

If you feel like there should be a players' organization which (mal-)functions as a democracy, maybe try to make a new one.

Aaron wrote:

I am completely the opposite: if a poll has no bearing on the VEKN organization, than I am extremely disappointed.

VEKN is self-appointed, and there is no formal way for the player-base to have any say in decisions affecting the future of the game. Personally, I see the value in public participation. When VTES was owned by White Wolf, that wasn't possible. No matter how unpopular a ruling or card design was, there was no recourse. We as players now have a chance to affect the direction of the game, if we organize ourselves correctly. I think what Joscha is doing is very good.

How was it less possible to send poll numbers to White Wolf than it is to send them to VEKN? Or opinions about cards in general, from whatever source or grounds they may come. Some changes were made to cards and rules that were heavily discussed/bashed on the newsgroup for instance (of course it's hard to say for sure whether that was a contributing factor or not, but one can guess).

Also, from what I've read and heard, VEKN is made up by (amongst others) the princes and national coordinators. I think most players should be able to contact one of those and get something through in a formal way, as you put it.

On the topic of polls I personally think they're a waste of forum space, but that's me. And I very much hope (and believe) that not much official will come out of them. I guess it can be good to have rules/design people read some of the discussions on some cards though, as long as they can see through the mostly empty arguments.

Aaron wrote:

VEKN is self-appointed, (...)

No, it is not. In fact it has a better representation leadership than most so called "democracies".

You appoint and support Princes.
Your Princes nominate and support your National Coordinators.
National Coordinators elect the Inner Circle.

Most Inner Circles are such respected and awesome people that we were merely too happy to have them take office.
It was consensual, but it was still a group decision.
They do their job and I trust they do the best they can.
I have no doubt the Rules Team know more about the game than you, me or the most of us.
Our opinions here are valued and taken into account.
But we must be ready to have them make decisions that make no sense to us. Or make no decisions at all.

Whatever the type of organization that you can conceive, it will always happen. Always.

Izaak wrote:

Well... weren't the card-specific threads for exactly that? I applaud Joscha's effort to streamline the discussion about Villein and Lilith's Blessing, but a poll implies the outcome has actual significance towards any new rulings to be made. Cos, ya know, that's kinda the point of a poll.

Or maybe the point is to let people vote on the issue and move on.

Izaak wrote:

No offense, but what's the point of polls when people have stated their opinion quite clearly in the previous thread. Obviously anyone interested enough in the topic will have hit the button by now.

1) You forget about the people who doesn't post an answer in the thread but take part in the poll. We have over 100 people voting in the Villein-poll. Many did not post before.
2) Funny like some people don't like the possibility of letting the game developers hear their opinion to the game. I too don't think that you can maintain a game in a democratic way. But the Inner Circles or whoever have to and will care for the opinions of the community because they want the game to live on in these troubled times. So it is most important to give the people a voice. Doing this in a clear and good way, sorting out the arguments and sum it up with a good to read poll is a good solution IMHO. We had too many threads in which people just rant pointlessly and loathed each other.

Back on topic: Pinging the polls was surely a bad move by me. Making it sticky is a good thing. But a forum for polls only is a good idea too.