I completely agree. And how do you propose that the VEKN do that, to officially suggest how players play in their non-tournament games?
In reality, VEKN already does. It's just not explicit. Players come to VEKN for card rulings all the time having to do with non VEKN games. I don't see anyone saying, "Oh, that wasn't in a VEKN tournament, so we don't care if your playgroup let Sheldon play Cloak the Gathering while in torpor."
First, I'm not a VEKN representative,
You are a moderator on these forums.
assuming you were talking about me, how do you get snide and divisive from a one-line comment with a smiley face on it? Or, if you were talking about someone else, what did they say that you interpreted as snide and divisive?
Perhaps you weren't being snide. But I saw no reason to post said statement and interpreted it as snide and confrontational. If that is not the case, I apologize.
How does that fact change the VEKN from a group that you agree doesn't care about non-tournament play to a group that you think should care and say and/or do something official in regards to non-tournament play???
Maybe VEKN should care?
JOL received the authorization from CCP both to operate and to collect operating expenses. I know nothing about the other two websites.
That is pretty cool, I did not know that
I'm not sure how you come to this opinion, but no one is stifling any discussion here.
Once again, it is my interpretation that your allegedly snide comment was stifling.
And what legal research have you done to know this for certain? Perhaps you have another example of a completely dead CCG, with no manufacturer product left to sell, having sold it all to third-parties and emptied their warehouses, that has filed an injunction or a lawsuit to stop proxies from being used? I await your reply.
My statement was based on the assumption that VEKN as an organization was interested in covering its ass should someone decide to sue. There isn't a lot (if any) money involved. VEKN doesn't collect dues or charge admission or sell any goods or services. But that means there isn't any money to mount a defense against someone like this asshole.
It takes like 35 years for the rights to artwork to revert back to the artist. So, when I retire and my vampire cards have long fallen into the ocean after "the big earthquake" and Anson Maddocks sues VEKN to remove his images from use in V:tES proxies, I am going to have to use this as a proxie:
Not quite correct. I'm a moderator on ONE of the forums. Not this one, and not a public forum, either. Because VEKN has granted me moderator-status on a single forum does not make me a representative of the VEKN, except on that single forum. I'm sorry the software doesn't allow the users to see this clearly.
And what legal research have you done to know this for certain?
My statement was based on the assumption that VEKN as an organization was interested in covering its ass should someone decide to sue.
No, you made a statement about liability. Either you have knowledge that the VEKN would like to know about regarding liability, or you were talking out of your butt. If you do, then, again: I await your legal brief to the VEKN on the subject.
The problem I see in all this discussion is that nobody is asking (himself and the community) the two key questions about proxies:
1. Are proxies positive for the game (different reasons, new recruits, more deck archetype innovation etc.)?
2. Have proxies a possible negative aspect that can influence the game (card value, metagame, possible licence buying etc.)?
If we analyze this two aspects (let's say, PRO/CONTRA), I think we can come to an easy solution. Let's say (if the VEKN agrees) we accept proxies because of its PRO's, the thing should be minimize the negative impact on the game. I've been thinking about this quite a long time and I think that I have a proposal.
The positive side on proxies (as many people have said), is that they allow new people to build decks without a great money investment. They certainly will play with proxies in friendly games, but the problem comes when they wish to play a tournament and don't have the cards to play them. It's true that usually V:tES players are kind and let newbies borrow the cards, but new players not always have that chance. Given that this is almost a "dead" game (until further news we could certainly say it's in "coma"), it's not only always a monetary reason, but it's not that easy most of the times to get certain cards or to simply build normal decks.
It MAY be positive if the VEKN allowed a certain % of proxies in official tournaments and charged a "tax" for the proxy use. Let's say a normal tournament costs 5€ to participate. A person that plays with 10% proxies could pay 5€ + 5€ proxy "tax" or with (let's say as maximum) 20% proxies with 10€ proxy "tax" (plus the normal 5€ participation costs).
Now that the game is kinda stopped, this "tax" could be used for prizes, so people that actually have invested more money in cards and play without proxies have a lower participation cost and people that don't owe all the cards pay a little bit more, which reverts in the own community in more prizes for all participants. In the future this "tax" could be set by the owner of the licence (if they want to keep it) or could be used as I now described, since more prizes means more money the company wins by selling starters and boosters for tournament use.
I don't know if my idea is clear, but I don't think a company will disagree in a certain percentage of proxies if there is a sort of "tax" that benefits them economically in some way and players that actually have a great pool card shouldn't feel in disadvantage because there are players that are playing tournaments without actually owning the cards.
The thing to be done is just ask the community and the company, if there's an agreement I don't think why it shouldn't be done.
PD: Sorry for my crappy English, I hope everything is understandable.
VEKN does not require tournament organizers to provide prize support, nor does VEKN require organizers to collect fees for the tournaments. Both of those would be requirements in order to "tax" as you have put it.
It would also be unpopular. It is basically taxing the poor and giving to the rich. You want to charge players who use proxies more, so there is more prize support for everyone. Who do you think will win the prizes? The more experienced players, who can play without using proxies.
Proxies aren't going to matter until such a time comes that we can no longer buy sealed cards. By not allowing proxies, VEKN is encouraging us to buy up the rest of the cards Rose Tatu (U.S.) and Walch & Nusser (Europe.)
If you want VEKN to seriously consider proxies, buy some cards.
If you want to help new players get some cards, organize a tournament that allows proxies and offer prize support, with the caveat that the prize support only go to the new players. Often enough, I've seen the winners of tournaments give away most of the cards they win to the new players anyway.
direwolf... that time is now !!
I love this game, i'm a middel class guy and i can't belive i want to build a akunanse deck and i need to expend double money than a year ago. that is not fair for the game and it's not fair for my economy.
My friends, a loot of them last year new players, they don't wanna go to the tournaments for the same, they don't have enough cards. We only play casual games every week in Barcelona.
How you are going to encourague new player to play if you tell them to made a deck they need to pay the same money amount they need to pay for a Magic: the gathering deck and they are not going to win money in the tournaments ??
If it's something good of this game is the prices of the single cards are always been cheap, and with a base of 50$ you can made a competitve tournament deck. But after more than 2 years without the capability of buy new boosters the cards or decks the prices are rising in e bay with a greedy fever.
The only thing i want to make note to this comuntity, proxys are necesary if the game is than dead like beguns to look is right now, we need some solutions to v:tes just don't die like others do before.
Ideas like this new incoming expansion made by the comunity, ideas like allowing new or poor players play with Proxys in the oficial torunaments...
I always play with original game cards because i always though is more cheap buy original ones than buy a ink cartridge for my printer, but now that is totally inverse.
Looking how is right now the panorama of v:tes i still thinking and defending oficial play with proxies in the tournaments of v:ken is not a bad idea.
I enjoy reading the cardovador point of view and looks very awesome to me.
I'm against that idea only the most old players win the tournaments, my though about this game or any CCG game never was like that, if the most experience is going to win always for why playing ?? i love see new faces in the final tables, maybe you not ?? maybe you don't love this gime like i do
I expect your answer and like my fella cordovader i apologize for my crappy english too