Pentex Subversion Poll #2 and Discussion

Ohlmann wrote:

But people play Pentex subversion not because big cap deck exist. They play it because big cap dominate.

You may play Pentex Subversion because you think large cap vampires dominate. But the fact is that large-cap vampires do not completely dominate the tournament metagame. What about Vignes? Weenie AUS and DEM are still strong. Shambling Hordes. Nana/ANI weenie rush. Malk94. Giovanni PowerBleed. All these mid-cap decks have won large tournaments in the past 18 months.

Jeff wrote:

But at the root, if you don't like Pentex because it can remove your bigger minion very early, you won't like any dedicated rush deck for this very reason.

Also, I don't believe Pentex discourage minion interaction at all. It's about the same thing as torpor, without diablerie.

At least in combat, it is the minions interacting. I like combat. It should be better (just a touch). Pentex is a master card and therefore by definition doesn't (initially) involve minion interaction.

Ankha wrote:

No, they play it to handle decks that put all their eggs in the same basket, or abuse the superstar principle to create a monster impossible to handle. Being a high cap usually grants some extra power (bleeding for 3 in 1 action is better than bleeding 3 times for 1). It should also have a drawback.
Pentex can be also quite strategical when you have to wait the right moment to play it to oust your prey.

I agree it's a way better way to explain it.

Ankha wrote:

It also offers options to decks that would be locked otherwise. If I play a swarm deck, is it normal that 1 No Secrets From the Magaji locks me down? Pentex offers a solution.

Or, to put in other words, there is three card that are solutions useable against about any deck : Direct Intervention, Sudden Reversal, and Pentex Subversion. Of the three, the Pentex still is the one which is the less disruptive in my opinion.

Ankha wrote:

Jeff wrote:

Pentex is a master card and therefore by definition doesn't (initially) involve minion interaction.

Huh? 95% percent of the master cards involve minions. Blood Doll. Villein. Powerbase: Montreal. Zillah's Valley. Metro Underground. The Rack. The Coven. Dreams of the Sphinx (for influence). Hunting Grounds. Disciplines...

Master cards interact with minions. Minions interact with Master cards... BUT when Jeff Kuta is talking about "Minion Interaction" he doesn't mean: "The master cards have effects on minions..." Generally Jeff (and a few others, myself included) think of "Minion Interaction" as the interplay between 2 or more minions during the play of the game.


My dislike for Pentex is the "early game neutering" effect. It can be achieved by other decks doing similar things (on case from my own recent play is being Banished three turns in a row by my predator... very very boring game). It makes you wonder why you bothered to put the cards in sleeves and waste your time on the trip to the game. It gets worse if it is a tournament because then you know your chances of getting into finals have probably been smashed AND that you might as well not have forked out your entry fee (here's your token booster, thanks for coming to subsidise that asshole's winnings).

Ankha wrote:

No, they play it to handle decks that put all their eggs in the same basket, or abuse the superstar principle to create a monster impossible to handle. Being a high cap usually grants some extra power (bleeding for 3 in 1 action is better than bleeding 3 times for 1). It should also have a drawback.

Those decks already have several drawbacks. They get fewer actions. They have one principal target for rushes and blocks. They usually take longer to influence out their vampire or have to dedicate deck space to acceleration. These are significant penalties.

I am not at all sure that spending 11 pool to bleed for three with one action is better than spending 3 to 6 pool to bleed for one with three actions.

My experience is that it takes several actions and drawing the right cards to turn a great vampire into an unstoppable monster. Two pool, an MPA, and some chump blockers can nullify that considerable investment.

Ankha wrote:

Pentex can be also quite strategical when you have to wait the right moment to play it to oust your prey.
It also offers options to decks that would be locked otherwise. If I play a swarm deck, is it normal that 1 No Secrets From the Magaji locks me down? Pentex offers a solution.

I think everyone who has posted here agrees with the ability of the Pentex Subversion to remove a blocker from play in order to lunge or to break a "block everything" superstar deck. (I know some players don't like that aspect, of course.)

What we're discussing is the ability of Pentex to prevent superstars from acting at all.