Which is the problem: blood creation or recursion?
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Poll: Problem? (was ended 0000-00-00 00:00:00)
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09 Nov 2012 07:41 - 09 Nov 2012 07:42 #40688
by acbishop
I disagree with this fact you are exposing, for instance during the EC I had 5 games with Inner circles, no GW for the IC deck, and only one time out, the rest GW for other guy not playing IC.
Replied by acbishop on topic Re: Which is the problem: blood creation or recursion?
What I know, is that mostly of the time when there's a IC deck on the table, the table times out if the IC deck doesn't make the GW. The IC deck may die, but it takes so much time that his predator won't have time or resources for another VP.
I disagree with this fact you are exposing, for instance during the EC I had 5 games with Inner circles, no GW for the IC deck, and only one time out, the rest GW for other guy not playing IC.
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09 Nov 2012 11:55 #40694
by Ankha
Pool gain is more popular (and efficient) because it resists bleed, vote, and allows you to spend pool on other resources.
Reducing pool gain doesn't mean the weenie decks will win, rather than you'll have to use other methods to resist.
Replied by Ankha on topic Re: Which is the problem: blood creation or recursion?
No, it's not a necessity since you have many ways to counter it: playing Deflection-like cards, bleed reducer, Protected Resources, intercept...
I disagree. Gaining blood is fine, if the blood is used to play cards, not to gain pool. Draining 1 pool per turn using a Blood Doll is slow and acceptable. Gaining 8 pool or more with a trifle master is fast.
The necessity to do so is all derived from the fact that 2-caps can still bleed for 5 in this game. If fast Eddy wouldn't be hitting your pool for 4 starting with turn 2 and is then joined by two more buddies that can do the same, there would be less need to get silly amounts of pool back from your 10-caps *fast*.
Pool gain is more popular (and efficient) because it resists bleed, vote, and allows you to spend pool on other resources.
Reducing pool gain doesn't mean the weenie decks will win, rather than you'll have to use other methods to resist.
It's midly an issue, there are plenty of cards against weenie (more than in 1994) and few vampires that bleed you for more than their capacity. Maybe Samson in one game out of many, Keith Moody or Midget (for 4 instead of 3) but most of the time Apache Jones will bleed you for 4. This rules would save only 1 pool from time to time.This issue has been brought up since 1994 and instead of implementing the extremely easy to remember, suggested since 1994, totally sensible rule that a vampire can't bleed for more than its capacity,
Players will pack more combat, intercept or bleed reduction. Or more Blood Dolls, or more Banishment. They are plenty of solutions.
If Villein/Minion Tap were banned (for example), Voter Captivation, Lilith's Blessing, Abactor... won't be issues. You have blood, you can play more cards, more combat etc. You also have to be more careful and can't bring out 30+ influence on the table.
If Villein/MT were banned, the game would evolve to the point where you play midcaps with 10 deflections or weenie dom, weenie dem or weenie aus. Between all the poolgain people are STILL winning tables and/or tournaments with weenie dementation. I don't want to know what would happen without MT/Villein.
IMHO, it won't change anything. GB and Lilith's are not necessary to make an IC deck work.
Or you ban blood gaining cards (far more numerous and complicated!), meaning you play with free vampires that have no blood, with 0-cost cards because you can't afford to pay blood, which would lead to a more boring game (imho) and more tiemout since everyone gains pool easily.
Or, you start with banning GB and Liliths (and maybe limit master cards to 2 per turn, including trifle and OoT) and see how the game evolves from there?
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
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09 Nov 2012 13:15 #40706
by Juggernaut1981
Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418
Replied by Juggernaut1981 on topic Re: Which is the problem: blood creation or recursion?
Actually the discussion is meant to be about this:
If you were going to change the way VTES manages its blood-to-pool conversion do you want to:
1) Reduce the amount of blood people can convert back into pool
2) Reduce the amount, and ease, of creating new blood on minions
3) Both
4) No changes needed.
Personally, my issue is 2.
It weakens combat strategies (which are already shifted towards S:CE and avoidance). Its main cards enhance already strong archetypes (i.e. Voter Cap is potentially too powerful). Its ability to drag games on for a long period of time has been apparent for a LONG time in VTES(Who here has not seen a Tap & Cap deck, probably a Ven Lawfirm or a AAA, on 30+ pool with 30+ in minions and locations towards the mid-to-late game?). Most of the cards which provide large volumes of blood (Voter Cap, GB, Renewed Vigor) provide resource changes far greater than almost any card in VTES (Even Parity Shift can only make a 10-pool swing, Con Boon rarely makes a 10+ pool change). Voter Cap often provides 6 blood and 2 pool (there is no other card play that provides that amount of resource) AND does so as a reward for basically taking ousting actions. This influx of resources can cancel out whole turns of bleeding/voting/actions by a predator in a single action mod.
If you were going to change the way VTES manages its blood-to-pool conversion do you want to:
1) Reduce the amount of blood people can convert back into pool
2) Reduce the amount, and ease, of creating new blood on minions
3) Both
4) No changes needed.
Personally, my issue is 2.
It weakens combat strategies (which are already shifted towards S:CE and avoidance). Its main cards enhance already strong archetypes (i.e. Voter Cap is potentially too powerful). Its ability to drag games on for a long period of time has been apparent for a LONG time in VTES(Who here has not seen a Tap & Cap deck, probably a Ven Lawfirm or a AAA, on 30+ pool with 30+ in minions and locations towards the mid-to-late game?). Most of the cards which provide large volumes of blood (Voter Cap, GB, Renewed Vigor) provide resource changes far greater than almost any card in VTES (Even Parity Shift can only make a 10-pool swing, Con Boon rarely makes a 10+ pool change). Voter Cap often provides 6 blood and 2 pool (there is no other card play that provides that amount of resource) AND does so as a reward for basically taking ousting actions. This influx of resources can cancel out whole turns of bleeding/voting/actions by a predator in a single action mod.
Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418
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09 Nov 2012 14:08 #40709
by Ankha
Replied by Ankha on topic Re: Which is the problem: blood creation or recursion?
Proven by who? And bounce is simply superior to bleed reduction, but that doesn't mean bleed reduction isn't effective.
No, it's not a necessity since you have many ways to counter it: playing Deflection-like cards, bleed reducer, Protected Resources, intercept...
Out of these, only bounce actually work. This has been proven over and over again and I really don't think it's even worth mentioning bleed reduction and protected resources.
once again, you're mixing up things. People play Villein because it's the more effective strategy. That doesn't mean other strategies are inexistant.
Players will pack more combat, intercept or bleed reduction. Or more Blood Dolls, or more Banishment. They are plenty of solutions.
Except, there are not. Because if there were, people wouldn't all be using Villeins
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
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