I would really like to hear of all of those fortitude cards that you say are worse at basic than rego motus? From what I can think of right away...

Armor of Vitality = Better at basic than rego motus at superior!!
Hidden Strength = Better at basic than rego motus
Indomitability = Slightly better at basic than rego motus
Resilience = Slightly better at basic than rego motus
Rolling with the Punches = Slightly better at basic than rego motus
Skin of Night = Worse at basic than rego motus (woo hoo we have a winner!)
Skin of Rock = Slightly better at basic than rego motus
Skin of Steel = Better at basic than rego motus at superior!!!
Soak = Situationally either better or worse at basic than rego motus
Superior Mettle = Better at basic than rego motus at superior!!!
Unflinching Persistance = Slightly better at basic than rego motus.

Did I forget anything? From that list that at the very least goes over most of the fortitude prevent cards you actually see, grand total of 1 is worse at basic than Rego Motus, and one is roughly the same, all the rest are better, some even better at basic than what rego motus is at superior.

jhattara wrote:


The discussion aside, how does Rego Motus prevent you from being punched for 8? Assuming you're a dedicted combat deck and the Tremere guy isn't, then you should have more maneuvers because you (should) play Unflinching Persistance as part of your prevent and you (should) grapple so him can't flush his Thefts. So you smack him for 7, he prevents 4 you prevent 1 and he gets disarmed or just torped straight away.

If you're saying that your deck relies on rush - grapple - disarm then you're not a dedicated combat deck and thus get foiled by fairly common and easily available combat defense. Which means your deck is probably bad and would get totally trashed by a single .44. Or Animalism. Neither of which is uncommon by any standards.

If the above is not the case, that means that the tremere guy *is* a dedicated combat deck with like a 12 Maneuvers and 15 Thefts. In which case you're basically saying that your superstar Hardestadt rush deck, designed to make your prey miserable instead of getting VPs got overwhelmed by a swarm of smaller guys. Gosh, what a fucking surprise... that never happens right?

And this is Rego Motus´s fault exactly how?

Haze wrote:


Maybe, but at least I never ever had any complaint from the ladies !

Ankha wrote:

That's exactly what i'm telling : Rego is GOOD. But most people here pretend it's a mediocre card, or an "ok" card at best. No, no, it's really GOOD. To the point of being a no brainer, like deflection can be in a tremere/anti deck.

Klaital wrote:

I like your list and want to thank you for the effort, but two things are bothering me : who around you is still playing skin of rock ? Fortitude is cool, but card slots are not infinite. Most potence/fortitude fighters don't even really use unflinching because its too weak as a prevention card. They'd rather play a sewer lid or an earthshock because they know the "maneuver" game is lost against other fighters (except Ani bat/carrion).

Another thing you should take in account is : you can safely think that you always have blood to pay for rego motus. And most of the time, even if you were empty at the start of combat, this blood just comes comes from your opponent ! Let's also think that preventing 2 damage is better than preventing 1 damage. Most of the cases, when you prevent, you want to prevent real damage, not hands from 1 from a non fighter -especially since you will steal blood. And of course, you want to prevent Agg damage.
So here is your revised list :

Armor of Vitality = Better at basic than rego motus at superior!! -> Mainly because it prevents environmental from aid/carrion
Hidden Strength = Better at basic than rego motus
Indomitability = Slightly better at basic than rego motus
Resilience = Slightly better at basic than rego motus
Rolling with the Punches = Slightly better at basic than rego motus
Skin of Night = Worse at basic than rego motus (woo hoo we have a winner!)
Skin of Rock = Slightly better at basic than rego motus

Skin of Steel = Better at basic than rego motus at superior!!!
Soak = Situationally either better or worse at basic than rego motus -> i can't count the number of times i was punched for 1 agg with 2 soak in hand, but it's good since it trumps aid/carrion. Good card.
Superior Mettle = Better at basic than rego motus at superior!!!
Unflinching Persistance = Slightly better at basic than rego motus.

So you see, if we take in account the synergy between other THA cards and Rego, which renders its blood cost moot, most of the fortitude cards are not so strong compared to rego motus.

jhattara wrote:
Thank you for the real life example. Thank you for showing that a dedicated THA fighter includes more manoeuvers overall than a regular POT fighter. I'm glad i read this
The argument "you get grappled and then..." is quite nullified when people realize the synergy between THA cards allow for greater flexibility against most fighters except CEL which outmaneuvers THA thanks to Pursuit.

Well, I don't know for you, but even if i'm a bit on the trolling side, the arguments we are all deploying here are interesting, aren't they ?

Izaak wrote:


I don't use maneuvers, I have undodgeable ranged strikes keyed on strength instead (Eerthshock) and the Tremere were not weenies, they were 7-9 caps. And it really was Rego Motus that made the difference. I just wasn't able to torp the key guys by punching for 8 at long range, when they prevented 4 and stole 2 at the same time. And about being a dedicated combat deck, if a deck has permanent rushes, transient rushes and 40 red cards on top, I'd call it a dedicated combat deck. Animalism guys just go down when I tap them, be it long or close. Gun decks can be an issue, but then again, they are an issue to any combat deck that doesn't pack huge amounts of maneuvers and/or ranged strikes.

@ OP : I sort of agree in that I didn't like that Thaumaturgy gets a decent damage prevent, if it really needed any more combat cards it should have been a better maneuver/press card, could have been simply a THA Flash that said "Eh, you know what, Apportation just wasn't good enough". Who cares what it wallpapers. However I can't say I have had trouble with it 'cept with the Tzimisce so I couldn't say it's anything broken.

And I also agree that Obfuscate so didn't need a S:CE, neither did Animalism. These days it's all just about Immortal Grapple. Didn't draw any of your 12 grapples? Now you pay 6 pool for that. GG

Even with your saying that preventing two at 1 blood is better than 1 for free, Hidden Strength at basic is STILL better than Rego Motus at basic since it prevents that same 2 at 1 blood with option to prevent more (and prevents environmental also).

And yeah I don't use Skin of Rock, I use Resilience instead which is better in most situations (only part where Skin of Rock is better is if you are getting hit for exactly 2 aggravated damage). But pretty much only one of the fortitude prevent cards that cannot be played for free to prevent 1 damage or better that I use is Armor of Vitality, and that only in decks that have only or mostly basic fortitude. Since cards that you can cycle for free to prevent h1 are always better than ones that cost blood for the same thing. Hence why I pretty much never play either Skin of Steel or Superior Mettle anymore (back before Armor of Vitality was printed I did). Resilience, Rolling with the Punches, and Hidden Strength are the three prevent cards I use most often in a generic FOR prevent package.

Demnogonis Saastuttaja wrote:


I have NEVER seen anyone play Flesh Bond. Crows + Bats is just so good short chain combat that I would rather play that over Flesh Bond in about any deck with ANI (including nos/!nos stealth vote). No Trace likewise I have only very rarely seen played, mainly because it requires superior obfuscate to be at all reliable, and unless your playing huge fatties, most likely at least half your guys have only basic in any deck that would want to use it, and if you have superior obfuscate, you might just as well use Swallowed by the Night instead.

Klaital wrote:


I've seen both Flesh Bond and No Trace played successfully even in tournament environments.

Klaital wrote:


I know it's strange, but i used 4-5 Flesh bond in a couple of vote decks for 3 reasons.
1- it's a SCE that works at any range, is rarely expected and that trumps bat/carrion
2- the two damage works at any range and can destabilize a chump blocker.
3- mainly because 2 damage is exactly what it takes to destroy a raven spy.

That said, my experience with this card is not so great.

No trace, on the other hand, I see it every week because 1-it trumps ani/carrion once or twice in a while. 2- It's great against sniper rifle 3-you can always use the maneuver provided by Mind tricks played earlier or simply from swallowed by the nigh as you just said. Better than being hit by earthshock or sewer lid with a press

Reyda wrote:


10+ player TWD deck with Atleast 50% tremere/!tremere and deflection = 104 results
10+ player TWD deck with Atleast 50% tremere/!tremere and Rego Motus = 21 results

10+ player TWD deck with deflection = 696 results
10+ player TWD deck with Rego Motus = 23 results

Deflection is up there in the top 10 best cards in the game. Rego Motus doesn't even play in the same league.

[source: secretlibrary]