Nerfing Giant's blood

ReverendRevolver wrote:

Why is it that a few vocal forum users want to change core rules of the game but nobody ever mentions the absolute only rediculous part of the rules: strike priority.

Because the influence on game balance is close to 0. There is pretty much only one clan with access to it, and even them have much more pressing issues at hand such as ousting power and defense.

But from both a balance and fluff standpoint, why can carlton dodge ur-shugli shadow feighnting, and how does jayne joneston cook up a majesty to trump enkidu shadow feighnting to punch said minion into paste?

Because to dodge IRL you would need to anticipate someone's strike first. Same in VTES, dodging has higher priority, since minion anticipates the other minion's strike whenever it happens. That's for the logic part.

For the balance part, the best part for first strike is that if you kill in one strike, you suffer no retaliation. That's it, I bet it was meant to be so and it is. There are anti S:CE cards for CE, additional strikes/presses for dodges, etc. Why would the metagame need to op first strike?

Because to dodge IRL you would need to anticipate someone's strike first. Same in VTES, dodging has higher priority, since minion anticipates the other minion's strike whenever it happens. That's for the logic part.

Yes, to dodge a 'normal' attack.

The concept of First Strike is you either surprised the defender, or they used Celerity/ect to move faster than you. Can't dodge what you can't see or anticipate...







Unless you're Spiderman.

I kno it barely matters in the sxheme of things, and im not saying i want it changed, just that in the whole of the rulebook, thats my beef. Not contesting, etc. Majesty takes conscious effort to employ. Ur-shugli moves so fast, hedosnt appear to have moved, just shifted location. How can mundane ducking save you from that?

Again, not demanding chamges, just statimg that nothing needs changed, but first strike makes no sense in priority

I agree that First Strike should come before S:CE. S:CE effects represent powers that require concentration to use in the RPG for the most part. You should be able to strike before they think about melding into the earth. It would balance a bit S:CE, which is very powerful.

However, strike: dodge should not be changed, and it would be a bit more involved to change it. Right now strike: dodge simply nullifies the negative effects of a strike. Fairly straightforward. If you change it, you'd have to say that strike: dodge nullifes the effects of a strike unless the strike is made with First Strike. To me, changing the order of resolution is so simple really: First Strike -> Combat Ends -> normal strike (and no, Dodge doesn't happen faster than any other strike: it just nullifes the effect of an opposing strike).

Also, you shouldn't think of First Strike as an attack made on a completely unknowing opponent. It is really more an issue of greater speed or initiative. It is still possible to react quickly when surprised. Check out the video footage of ex-U.S. president Bush dodging a shoe flung at him at a news conference in the Middle East. If we assume that Mr. Bush isn't a member of a race of shapeshifting reptilian humanoids with advanced reflexes, we can see that it is possible to dodge an attack that is made by surprise.

The concept of First Strike is you either surprised the defender, or they used Celerity/ect to move faster than you. Can't dodge what you can't see or anticipate...

I'd have to remind that dodges come from telepathic means (Auspex), speed (Celerity), wind and blood magic (Thaumaturgy) or other means, which sound like a fine counter.

I think you are letting your imagination to go a bit extreme with first strikes. As I can see from current mechanic, it just replicates initiative which becomes important if the strikes become deadly.

Recalling VTM rules, even disciplineless ally should and could dodge first strikes with Dodge as this action is not unique to vampires and not superhuman.

As for Majesty, it is a passive ability mostly in VTM, so I think it is only normal, e.g. for Assamite to suddenly back out from fight with Ventrue just because he loses all his will to fight, not because Ventrue did anything specific.

To add salt to the wound, there are cards designed to work specifically what you want First strike to be: Hidden Lurker. As you could see, it is associated with Obfuscate, which is naturally a much more stealthy discipline than Quietus.