I'm not sure if it's possible. I see 2 problems right out of the gate: 1 is finding out the cost. You can do the research and get prices for the cost of rolling out a set yourself or through a company, but have *no* idea on how to account for what ccp/whitewolf and hasbro/wotc will charge/want. They could be fine with just a percentage off the top to wanting money up front and then a percent.

2 Maybe I'm wrong about this, but the problem i see isn't the money, which can be gotten if someone wants if bad enough, the problem I see is hasbro/wotc. I think that to get the game back out again, their approval as well as successful money negotiations need to be attained. I personally think that they'll say "no" no matter what price is offered to them. My gut tells me that they would look at it as a competing card game in a market they own and instead of chancing the idea of loosing *any* sales from pokemon and magic to vtes, they just say "no". If I were them, I'd so "no" so as to keep my card games as the only things you have available to you.

gymim wrote:


The costs are known.
The costs aren't the important part.

How are you going to convince a company (CCP) that brings in 10s of millions a month to spend any money ($250,000 to print a set similar in size to Keepers of Tradition with all new art), when their potential return on investment is that they recoup their costs?

You need to show them how they can make a profit. Because in the end, business is a game of math, and the current size of the player base and their historic spending records don't indicate that doing more than breaking even is currently possible.

This part involves making a presentation with the proper math, but more over, having someone/some-company pitch it that has a track record of making things of this nature successful.

Here's my confusion, why would CCP need to spend 250,000? Wouldn't the onus of the cost be on the party making the pitch to CCP? If the party lobbying to re-start VTES wasn't footing the entire bill from front to back, I don't know why CCP would even bother looking at the proposal.

I would assume that the proposal would have to be: pitched by someone with a track record of success, note that all the cost would be covered by the party wishing to re-start VTES, that a reasonable RoI would be given in tangible numbers, that CCP would be given 5% to 15% of sales, and also leave room for CCP to come to the table with a monetary figure demanded on their (CCP's) part just for the third party to come "on-deck" and move forward (I.E. check to see if the third party is really serious).

Again, though, i think all this is unimportant compared to the fact that (unless i've made a mistake which is quite possible) hsbro/wotc need to give approval as well, and i think that no matter what is offered, they are just going to say "no", as VTES competes in their market. Although i really would like to see if that is true, or if they don't care just as long as a certain monetary number is hit as a falt fee to hasbro/wotc as well as a cut of the profit, or if they have no say at all and if all the negotiations are done via CCP/whitewolf.

gymim wrote:


You're two years late to the party, so I'll repeat a few items.

White Wolf/CCP will not relinquish to a random third party, and all of the existing game companies were considered for partnerships before the decision to end the product line was made.

The fees they want for their IP and that WOTC/Hasbro want for their IP makes any investment short of 2 million a non-starter.

Until copyright and trademark licenses expire, you won't be able to get anyone except CCP to publish cards. They are the only ones that can be convinced and you have to convince them they can make a real profit, in the high 6 figure a year range.

So unless your Kickstarter funder has won a lottery and considers V:TES their own private charity, you aren't going to get the product to a third party producer.

The players had a chance to show White Wolf/CCP how much they would spend on new product when they did their direct to customer sales thru their website. The response was tepid, at best.

So my perception of your post is "to buy (and to fully own) the IP outright from CCP/WhiteWolf and Hasbro/WotC, you would need around 2 million down". But the third party (i assume) wouldn't be trying to buy (and to own) the IP, but to use it with permission from ccp/whitewolf and hasbro/wotc in return for a fee and/or a cut from the profit.

Am I wrong in my perception? If so, could you help clarify it for me?

Also, where did the 2 million number come from? Just as a guess, I assume when whitewolf took over the game from hasbro/wotc, whitewolf didn't become owner of "tapping" and "deckmaster", whitewolf just used them with permission from hasbro/wotc. I assume that hasbro/wotc didn't ask for 2 million up front, but that is just pure speculation on my part. I would assume hasbro/wotc asked for less and then asked for a cut off the profit, knowing that whitewolf was an already established company with the capitol to roll out cards.

gymim wrote:


Nope.
To begin licensing the IP, you need 7 figures a year to each company.
To rent, not to own.

gymim wrote:


Yes.

gymim wrote:


Not without violating confidential business information even more.

gymim wrote:


Time to stop that.

I won't be posting more on the topic after this final line.

It is stupid to think that any of the companies involved are going to budge on their IP concerns for insignificant amounts. There aren't significant amounts of money in this game. I sold 18% of the entire print run of Heirs to the Blood, so I have a very good knowledge of exactly what sold, to whom it sold, and how it broke down per player.

If you want to move V:TES towards new printings or new sets, you must be able to show CCP that they can make a profit, and they have years of experience to know how it simply paid its bills and made enough to cover a few employees that mostly worked on other products.

It was never discontinued for a lack of operating capital at CCP.
See also: MMORPG

7 figures to each company to license the game (per year), and that is excluding everything to make the cards and get them to the customer. So it sounds like 2 to 4 million to start it up and get running. No idea how that kind of money get rounded up, lol.

Thank you Adonai very much for your time and information! Woot!

Like I have been saying. Unless it is community driven (as it is now), VTES is not coming back in an official published capacity. Or at least that is my belief. People should get used to that. Perhaps FFG might one day base an LCG or something of the like on the WoD, but even that is a ways out and there are other IP's that may make more profit prior to considering WoD. Plus it may not even resemble VTES and they most likely won't incorporate a back catalog of cards from a dead game. I know people say VTES is not dead, but technically it is indeed dead, but receives post community support in an unofficial capacity.

Adonai did a great job illustrating the key points and hopefully this puts this to rest for a while.

I thought the deckmaster license was used for netrunner, and its getting a new game out soon by FFG. So wouldnt they be a probable publisher? And i thought the license would expire 2014? Is netrunner an exception?

blackday wrote:


There were three games that utilized Deckmaster. Magic, Netrunner, and VTES. FFG won't utilize Deckmaster. And besides, they only have to work with one company. Further, it won't utilize the old cards, but a new game on it's own. Thus this avoids issues.