EDIT: The post went off track by me stating my beliefs regarding VTES and perhaps some bad communication/focus in my original post. So I am going to remake this into a shorter and more to the point. Something resembling what I had in mind when setting out this idea in my head.

Lets start with the facts. VTES is a dead game (in torpor), but supported by its fans up to and including this website (good job guys!). Organization, etc. is still being fleshed out, but an overall great effort. And a print and play set is being worked on. That being said dead ccg games historically don't garner many new fans and generally lose more than they gain. History can be the teacher on that one. VTES was given an advantage by coming to an official close by CCP/WW as we are in a very affluent digital and social media era. It's disadvantage is the fact it takes 4-5 people to play the game and it already is a fragmented game from going into torpor once. Still, there is a core player base that continues. There are many regular tournaments that only field 10 players compared to just a couple years ago. One might make the conclusion it wouldn't take much for there to be less tournaments if more players were to drop in some already fragile playgroups. In my own local area we had 6 people quit in the last few months and several others retire to casual status. Some others are unknown. While someone else stated there was a great showing for some games on the West Coast recently. Perhaps what we will see is less tournaments that aim to have more solid numbers. Whatever the case, there is data in the TWDA that suggests a slow decline overall in some regards. Not enough to declare any state of emergency, but our community has to keep ahead of the curve (thus ideas have even been posed to alter qualification guidelines to garner future solid showings at championship events, at least in the US).

Lastly, the deckmaster mechanic that in part lead to the demise of VTES expires in 2014. Undoubtedly there are some hoping positive things will occur. In retrospect I have my doubts at least regarding VTES continuing in it's traditional format (the game as we know it and utilizing all the legal cards in existence), AND being picked up and supported as such.

All the mixed emotions and data aside I believe that there will always be a core base of people playing the game until they don't have 4 players to play with.

My thoughts are that there could be an alternative or set of alternative games. They don't have to force anyone to set aside VTES. In fact depending on the format it could compliment the game or introduce a bridge that can shine more light on VTES as a sister game.

The options (ones I could think of):

1. A Living Card Game (LCG). This is the most popular avenue as of late for modern card games. It curbs cardboard crack by eliminating rarity. And it is very flexible and doesn't require large persistent releases. One of the latest and most notable announces was return of Netrunner by FFG (Fantasy Flight Games). The mechanics are very similar with what seems to be an easy entry barrier, low cost for players, and new art, etc. VTES could have the same treatment, albeit a while off if it were by FFG at least as they have a full plate.
2. A board game. While this could go a number of ways I think other notables that provide some complexity, balance, intrigue, and deep strategy are board games like Game of Thrones, BSG, Chaos in the Old World, and others. If one could bring the World of Darkness into such a realm I believe the format of a board game could very much compliment VTES. Plus many VTES players also love board games! Of course expansions could be done as well.
3. An iphone/ipad/android app adaptation to either one of the above ideas. A game like Ascension already does this format to it's physical format. Probably more of a secondary way to access and play the game.

-------------------

My questions would be this:

• Would you be interested in any of the ideas above?
• Are you someone who if you believed in the product that would help crowd fund the project via Kickstater? You can list what you would fund specifically. For example, an LCG adaptation of the VTES game, new LCG altogether based in WoD, a new game using base game ideas not set in WoD (but, not a clone), or just a different board game version that could compliment the game like Game of Thrones.

RoddimusPrime wrote:

Several times in your ost you state thing slike this.
Can you please show some real data and evidence supporting it?
Or does it just sound good and true if we repeat it enough times?

RoddimusPrime wrote:

Again do you have some hidden information that the others don't have?
I'm not holding my breath either, but I won't say never either.

RoddimusPrime wrote:

I always thought that The Sabbat was the most elusive one.

RoddimusPrime wrote:

I might be tempted to try it out.
Plenty of good games around already and I manage to waste my free times several times over already. So I ain't exactly looking for a new pony.

RoddimusPrime wrote:
Probably not.
KS tends to have atrocious ibnternational shipping costs.
If something is succesful it tends to be available through normal channels as well and often quicker (for example a comic book I supported I shipping via comic distribution next week, but I haven't yet eceived the copy I supported via KS).

I don't really want a game vaguely similar to VTES.
I want more VTES.

RoddimusPrime wrote:
This is factually untrue regarding many major tournaments throughout the world, and for the NAC/Origins VTES events in particular. Unless you were speaking with hyperbole, I'd like to see some evidence to back up this claim.

RoddimusPrime wrote:
As-is, perhaps, but given, say, a new, 300-card base set with simplified wording and a properly-selected set of cards, player issues relating to confusing card text would calm down quite a bit and we could focus on playing.

RoddimusPrime wrote:
And you know this, how?

RoddimusPrime wrote:
Why? I haven't been shown that the horse is dead yet.

RoddimusPrime wrote:
And you know this, how?

RoddimusPrime wrote:
"If setup right...?" The question is too broad to answer. When someone comes up with an alternative to VTES, show me that game and I'll decide then if I like it or not.

RoddimusPrime wrote:


What does this mean? I thought CCP's license expired in 2010, because it was a 10-year license starting in 2000.

Two of the most vocal people no doubt have replied. I have seen a plethora of debate with you two involved so I will keep this short as you both have similar thoughts/questions.

First of all if you read my post it was edited prior to either of you posting so there are some minor changes I made that you may want to look at.

Secondly, I still believe VTES is a slow declining game. I cannot provide you with too many statistics as we don't have Nielson ratings, official publisher numbers, etc. Oh wait, that's because the game's officially kaput. So at least in one capacity that is a pretty big blow. That part is obvious. I don't hear of people heading to Star Trek or Star Wars in droves and they had a much bigger player base than we did. Their small core audience still exists and will likely continue to for some time. Some other dead games had support for a while until it finally dwindled (i.e. Middle Earth). The advantage VTES has is that VTES died in a time with the internet and social media is so much more affluent and accessible. Thus I think there is some more staying power with the audience that we currently have. But, I have hear from multiple people of two things in their local community. One, people have gone to casual status or play much less often now. Two, some people have plain and simply quit. This leads to the existing groups scraping for 10 players to have a valid tournament. It won't take much for their to be less tournaments due to the inability to fetch 10 people on a regular basis and obviously if you look at the TWDA you can see just 2 years ago the average tournament seemed to have more than 10 people on a regular basis (esp. in Europe).

And to give you a little more proof in the pudding sort of speak is that in the last 3 months we had 6 people quit in my local area. Most of them had gone to casual status the few months before finally quitting, but it is still a group of people who no longer play the game. Four other people have quit playing VTES on a tournament level for the time being and only occasionally play at one of their houses. During that time we picked up one new player. This is just an example in central Ohio. I don't care to list others, but can tell you that a common trend in many of other playgroups (most in the US) is that they have problems getting enough people for tournaments so they have instead reduced tournaments to only a few times a year and will instead play at a friends house. And while at Origins some of the Europeans had similar sentiments for some of the playgroups while saying others have seemed fairly steady at the moment, but the advantage in Europe is that playgroups can cross pollinate and help make up the numbers to get 10 people at a tournament.

The need for a new alternative was a personal belief. One that many people have thought about and are supportive in theory for. Many of those same people would be supportive of VTES continuing if picked up by a publisher as well. I have yet to hear too many people say they would flat out leave VTES for greener pastures, but would appreciate a new game at least.

However, people can posts about an FFG or Kickstarter idea all they want. The ultimate proof is if someone would be willing to play a new game and how many would be willing to put $5 or more down on a Kickstarter fund.

By the way I am sorry to hear about your comic experience, but no one I know has had issues state side. Thus I imagine to do something right in order to please everyone is to have a release/launch date of a game post a kickstarter release for early supporters and make sure Europe had equal support.

Also, to Kevin, I believe you would fall into the camp of someone testing a game post release. Kickstarter doesn't really give a beta game for someone to play for instance as the funding is needed in order for it to happen in the first place. However, sometimes snippets of a video are given to try and represent the vision of the project. Perhaps in this case some visual images of the game in beta and potential cards would be a good way to at least give the feel.

Sorry for typos, etc. Will edit later.

RoddimusPrime wrote:


Not bashing here, but I did want to point out that just this past weekend the largest U.S. west coast V:TES tournament was held (29 players). The second event that day had 20 players and was won by Brett Schofield who, IIRC, only started playing the game after V:TES ceased production.

AaronC wrote:


CCP essentially had leased the deckmaster mechanic from Hasbro/WotC. That particular lease expired and was not renewed.

That particular mechanic though and it's legal attachments expire in 2014. At that point someone like CCP could pick the game up again. Or they coud shop the game around to potential other publishers (without also having to deal with Hasbro/WotC).

Jeff Kuta wrote:


Correct me if I am wrong, but I am also pretty sure that most of those guys couldn't make Origins and wanted to make a decent sized event in their back yard (this was my impression at least). Even so, that is still impressive. That still is only one example of a positive in one playgroup area. Again, I don't expect VTES to crumble in the next few months or probably even the next 2 years. But, the game will continue to be supported by it's core player base. And that is something that many people are satisfied with and can live with the game as is. Very much akin to Star Trek and it's group. However, there won't be many people getting into the game just like other dead card games. I have a feeling many people will continue to be happy playing even if it were down to a fraction of the current members.

I still believe that VTES is gradually losing more people than gaining and that regular tournaments still struggle to exceed 10 people, even in most of Europe. It would not take much to have further challenges, esp. in regular tournament settings. There would be no need to qualify more people for championships in the US at least if that weren't the truth. Yet that has been a serious topic of discussion. At this point it is trying to stay ahead of the curve and doing what is needed to preserve the game.

But, I still believe there are people who would like to see a living game that either was a compliment to VTES or served as something like the "new VTES." Again, current VTES could be the legacy format and it could even help draw more in.

Even if people disagree it isn't like a vast array of gamers are going to discover this game at conventions, have paid advertising, gain larger potential audiences, etc. But, a new game could do just that. Further, VTES has some really nice and unique mechanics to the game that make it what it is. It goes beyond just the World of Darkness setting. It could even be implemented into a completely new game. As it is VTES is one of few games that produces the unique combination we all love. Some of us may not like the cardboard crack aspect or that Mr. Chatterton's art ever existed, but those are small things in the overall picture.

RoddimusPrime wrote:


Just for my personal experience, I've restarted playing this game only half a year ago, and I've since recruited nine other new players, as well as two people who had stopped playing and are now getting back into it. And I live in Western Canada, where there aren't very many players. The only reason that we don't have and tournaments in my town is because few players own any cards (we supply decks to those who don't during casual games) and scheduling conflicts.

In short, I don't think the game is dead yet, and still has the potential to grow in its current state, and maybe even come back from torpor in the near future. The only way to truly kill VTES is if every player gives up on the game. Ironically, going along with your plan to build a VTES-style game would be a huge step in that direction.


I think Lönkka summed up my feelings on a new VTES-style game coming out.

I have many views towards a new VTES set.
One of these is very close to KevinM's idea of just creating a new standalone set with rules clarification and just not fix what isn't broken.

However I can see that the license split between CCP and WoC/Hasbro creates a major problem, and cutting out one or the other will ultimatly harm the game.

VTES without Auspex?

VTES without a randomized deck of cards?

I think the answer is fairly simple.
Don't try to fix the game.
Just play the game.

A slight divergence: VTES has always been a CCG at its heart.
Later on in the game pre-sorted decks were released.
I think if a new standalone set were released(I would hope) it would be in the standard CCG format. However the expansion releases and even microexpansion releases, would all depend on how the first release stood.

VTES has always been a huge set of cards and I dont think beginning players want to play against Mr. Suitcase x3 with there new released set vs. 13,000 cards of the old set. But that is only observational and personal experience.
Even though I dont think a Aged/New split is the right answer either.
Anyone with an idea for a happy median?

DR.