check Rules Team Rulings 02-DEC-11

05 Dec 2011 17:06 - 05 Dec 2011 17:08 #17159 by Chaitan

fredsct wrote:

chaitan wrote:

fredsct wrote: You know, I hate to get anal about this but it is not a correct thing to say about Minion Tap ("card X") and Villein ("card Y"). Villein was not "better" than Minion Tap in every possible way or it would not have been printed.


Nor did I claim it was. That is why I created a generic argument to prove a point about error in logic.


You'll have to forgive people for misunderstanding you. One would assume you were making the "generic argument" as a direct allegory to Minion Tap and Villein - which would be the common reason to employ such a rhetorical device. Even if the specifics do not apply in every detail, the usual sense of such argument is that they apply well enough to make your point. But they don't.

Johannes was saying that Minion Tap - used heavily in tournament winning decks for many years until Villien came along - cannot possibly be wallpaper now that Villien no longer affects it. Post change, we are now so far from the status of Villein being "better than Minion Tap" in any way, throwing such a statement around in this thread is completely irrelevant to the point he was made. The only thing Villein has over Minion Tap now is trifleness. Trifleness is a pretty significant thing but it doesn't turn Minion Tap into wallpaper.



Well said.


The word wallpaper is poorly defined. No card is truly so useless that will absolutely never ever see play (except maybe Becoming of Ennoia). When I say wallpaper I mean there are better alternatives regardless of the strength of the card.

Minion Tap is a strong card, no doubt about it. Even pre-nerf villein (where the general opinion said that MT was wallpaper) you could still take great advantage of it and possibly win assuming the metagame didn't cripple you too hard (but isn't that true for all decks? :)

Granted, Villein can not replace MT in a star vampire voter deck (or any deck that can repeatedly refill one or two star vampires) and as I first pointed out, if you have very few master cards then you can easily switch to MT instead of villein. I'm sure there are a few other niche decks it can fit into also that I didn't think of.

But that does not mean Villein isn't a stronger card if you look at them competitively. The synergy with cards such as Giants Blood, Lilith's Blessing and especially ANY other master phase action in hand or play is a much more likely consideration when you build a deck.
Last edit: 05 Dec 2011 17:08 by Chaitan.

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05 Dec 2011 19:05 - 05 Dec 2011 19:07 #17170 by johannes
I think the most common definition for wallpaper is : completely useless in any competitive deck. Which is just not true for Minion Tap. Trifle is nice, but alone the generic possibility to gain up to 11 pool makes a card strong, trifle or not. If you had said MT is now an average card, well that can be discussed.

Also my argument is valid with the TWDA I think under this assumption: A staple card for TWD over years can still significantly contribute to the winning strength of a deck today assuming that decks today are not much stronger than they were 4 years ago. Do you think they are?
Last edit: 05 Dec 2011 19:07 by johannes.

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07 Dec 2011 15:46 #17450 by jAvel
Replied by jAvel on topic Rules Team Rulings 02-DEC-11

“Cancel a card”:
A "canceled" card has no effect, but it is still considered played. Unless explicitly written, cost for the card is paid. If the card was a strike card, the minion who played it must choose a strike, which might come from another strike card. If the card was an action card, the minion doesn’t tap (he doesn’t pay for the action card), and can play the same action card again.

Just to sum up it all. This mean, that cards:
Groundfighting, I am Legion, Mundane, Power of All, Pseudo-Blindness, Rewind Time, Treat the Sick Mind
- now will cancel cards, and cost will be still payed?

How about card React with Conviction (first part of text):
"When and effect that would change control of this imbued is played or announced, you may burn this card to cancel that effect."
Is the cost for cancelled effect payed? (mostly "burn corruption counters to ..")

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07 Dec 2011 15:56 #17451 by Pascal Bertrand

jAvel wrote:

“Cancel a card”:
A "canceled" card has no effect, but it is still considered played. Unless explicitly written, cost for the card is paid. If the card was a strike card, the minion who played it must choose a strike, which might come from another strike card. If the card was an action card, the minion doesn’t tap (he doesn’t pay for the action card), and can play the same action card again.

Just to sum up it all. This mean, that cards:
Groundfighting, I am Legion, Mundane, Power of All, Pseudo-Blindness, Rewind Time, Treat the Sick Mind
- now will cancel cards, and cost will be still payed?

Now as previously. I just figured out players were not all aware of some of LSJ's rulings: [LSJ 20090601]

LSJ wrote: If it doesn't say "no cost", then the cost of the canceled card is paid.


jAvel wrote: How about card React with Conviction (first part of text):
"When and effect that would change control of this imbued is played or announced, you may burn this card to cancel that effect."
Is the cost for cancelled effect payed? (mostly "burn corruption counters to ..")

The effect, in this case, is "burn the corruption counters to take control". No cost is paid. [LSJ 20070222] (which is a reversal of an answer given earlier).

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07 Dec 2011 21:23 #17500 by Ankha
Replied by Ankha on topic Rules Team Rulings 02-DEC-11

jAvel wrote: This mean, that cards:
Groundfighting, I am Legion, Mundane, Power of All, Pseudo-Blindness, Rewind Time, Treat the Sick Mind
- now will cancel cards, and cost will be still payed?

Rewind Time states that no cost is paid. At inferior, since the cost of action cards is paid upon resolution, it doesn't need to be indicated.

Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

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08 Dec 2011 05:15 #17541 by Dasein
Replied by Dasein on topic Rules Team Rulings 02-DEC-11
Can we get a confirmation ruling that Marthe can now play Psyche at the end of a combat (instead of outside of it), use her ability as the first combat ends but before the next starts to retrieve the Psyche to her hand, and then proceed to the next combat?

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08 Dec 2011 08:04 #17547 by Pascal Bertrand
The question about Marthe has been asked here: vekn.net/index.php/forum/6-rules-questions/16788-new-psyche-and-telepathic-tracking#16820
But here it is again:
Marthe can play Psyche! at the end of a round of combat, retrieve it after combat (say in the "Obedience window"), and start the new combat.

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08 Dec 2011 08:09 #17549 by Kosmo_Kebab
Anyone can give me example of vampire with "has X votes"?

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08 Dec 2011 08:14 #17553 by Pascal Bertrand
Arishat, Maureen, Danielle Diron, base Ambrogino Giovanni, ..
They're usually worded "X votes." (The Baron, Mata Hari, ..)

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08 Dec 2011 08:15 #17554 by Chaitan

Kosmo_Kebab wrote: Anyone can give me example of vampire with "has X votes"?


Aziz, Dammar of Instanbul
Luna Giovanni
Bela Kardoza

Recieve X additional votes.

Amaravati
Gerald Windham
Ayo Igoli

Do not have X in the text but recieve a variable amount of additional votes.

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