file The Jones, interrupting TV or not ?

18 May 2012 13:19 - 18 May 2012 13:28 #30697 by Reyda

The Jones is played as the strike card is played (before the Target Vitals
is played). Like using DI to cancel a Govern with Seduction.

Thanks for the link, funny thing I picked up the same example as LSJ.

Yeah It's funny because nobody plays those cards together !!

Guess it should be rewritten to;

Whenever the cards contradict the rules, the cards take precedence except for rulebook:1.6.1.5

I hope my coworkers didn't hear me laughing so loud but yeah, seconded :silly:

Well thanks James for providing the link to the correct answer :)

Imagination is our only weapon in the war against reality -Jules de Gaultier
Last edit: 18 May 2012 13:28 by Reyda.

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18 May 2012 14:03 - 18 May 2012 14:13 #30700 by jamesatzephyr

Guess it should be rewritten to;

Whenever the cards contradict the rules, the cards take precedence except for rulebook:1.6.1.5


Not really. Not many cards screw with sequencing, but when they do they override the sequencing rules as normal. Deep Song changes who goes first in every timing window. Rapid Thought does it for one specific window.

However, a lot more cards 'define' a timing window (such as "as the action is announced", "when the block is successful" or "before range is chosen"). We then need to know what order those timing windows occur in. 1.6.1.5 is only ever about ordering effects in a given timing window - it doesn't let you rush ahead to a different timing window, or deny a player an opportunity to use an effect in this timing window. (Though you can prevent them from doing so indirectly - their before range card costs blood, you make them lose blood before range with Weather Control, they can't play it.)

The issue basically boils down to whether "as the card is played" comes before "as the strike is chosen", or whether they're the same thing (or maybe some other option I don't care about).

The same issue comes up with whether you announce an action when you play an action card (and so can play "As the action is announced" modifiers right then) or whether you play the card, wait for DI (or other cancellation), then announce the action.

The outcome is: the two work in the same way. Playing a card is a mini-step before "announce the action" or "choose the strike". So you get to cancel the card as it is played, before you move on to the "the strike is chosen" and "the action is announced" timing windows.

One benefit to this is that you don't end up with some hideous stack-like outcome, where I've played three modifiers on my action, or several "as the strike is chosen" actions on my strike, and then get my opponent asking if they can play a cancellation card.
Last edit: 18 May 2012 14:13 by jamesatzephyr.

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18 May 2012 15:07 #30705 by Boris The Blade

If you look at the rulebook, actions are "taken"/"declared"/"announced", and strike are "chosen". It makes sense that Target Vitals states "as the strike is chosen" instead of "as the strike is announced" because of the "Choose Strike" step in the rulebook.
Anyway, the choice of words doesn't really matter since they are all synonyms in the game. You can't modify a strike (with T:V) that is cancelled, no more than you can modify an action (with Seduction or any modifier) that is cancelled.

Thanks for pointing that the mistake originates in the rulebook. That does not make it less of a mistake, though. Synonyms are bad i any formal system such as a set of rules, especially when other close words such as "announce" and "play" get different meanings. How do you want people to guess when a word difference is meaningful and when it is not?
The following user(s) said Thank You: AaronC

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18 May 2012 15:09 - 18 May 2012 15:10 #30706 by Reyda
The art of telling stuff for hours.

-Tell me James, is that sofa blue ?

- Well, to be honest, you might think it's blue, and i don't want to state the obvious by telling you that for most people blue it is. However if you consider the different shades of the light spectrum....

- (snoring)

Imagination is our only weapon in the war against reality -Jules de Gaultier
Last edit: 18 May 2012 15:10 by Reyda.

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18 May 2012 18:36 #30716 by Ankha

If you look at the rulebook, actions are "taken"/"declared"/"announced", and strike are "chosen". It makes sense that Target Vitals states "as the strike is chosen" instead of "as the strike is announced" because of the "Choose Strike" step in the rulebook.
Anyway, the choice of words doesn't really matter since they are all synonyms in the game. You can't modify a strike (with T:V) that is cancelled, no more than you can modify an action (with Seduction or any modifier) that is cancelled.

Thanks for pointing that the mistake originates in the rulebook. That does not make it less of a mistake, though. Synonyms are bad i any formal system such as a set of rules, especially when other close words such as "announce" and "play" get different meanings. How do you want people to guess when a word difference is meaningful and when it is not?

Maybe someday a rulebook for robot with only 182 different words will be issued, until then we have to stick to logic and intuitivity.

By the way, here are the rules for Magic: the Gathering. I'm not sure it's better.

www.wizards.com/magic/comprules/MagicCompRules_20120501.txt

706.7a If an ability causes a player to "choose a [value]" or "name a card," and a second, linked ability refers to that choice, the second ability is the only ability that can refer to that choice. An object doesn't "remember" that choice and use it for other abilities it may copy later. If an object copies an ability that refers to a choice, but either (a) doesn't copy that ability's linked ability or (b) does copy the linked ability but no choice is made for it, then the choice is considered to be "undefined." If an ability refers to an undefined choice, that part of the ability won't do anything.
Example: Voice of All enters the battlefield and Unstable Shapeshifter copies it. Voice of All reads, in part, "As Voice of All enters the battlefield, choose a color." and "Voice of All has protection from the chosen color." Unstable Shapeshifter never had a chance for a color to be chosen for it, because it didn't enter the battlefield as a Voice of All card, so the protection ability doesn't protect it from anything at all.
Example: A Vesuvan Doppelganger enters the battlefield as a copy of Voice of All, and the Doppelganger's controller chooses blue. Later, the Doppelganger copies Quirion Elves, which has the ability, "{T}: Add one mana of the chosen color to your mana pool." Even though a color was chosen for the Doppelganger, it wasn't chosen for the ability linked to the mana ability copied from the Elves. If that mana ability of the Doppelganger is activated, it will not produce mana.


Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

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18 May 2012 21:25 #30728 by Juggernaut1981
@James:
And this has been my issue with some of the logic in rulings. The idea that a 'condition' statement creates a 'window'.

"If condition X is met, then you may play [CARD] using normal sequencing rules" seems far more long-term stable. Purely because it reduces the need to have things defined beyond the rulebook and the card.

Plus, I would also have suggested that any card which is "Playes as [CONDITION] must be played simultaneously (i.e. without replacement)" and any necessary cards drawn back into the hand if the card creating the condition is cancelled (e.g. T:V in this scenario, A weapon if Concealed Weapon was cancelled, Seduction if an action was cancelled).

:bruj::CEL::POT::PRE::tha: Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

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