Outside the Hourglass and Vampiric Disease

jamesatzephyr wrote:

Megabaja wrote:

What happens if a minion A plays OtH in combat with the blocking minion B with Improvised Flamethrower. Before range step ends, the minion A plays maneuver to long, then B moves to close, then A back to long, and range is set to long.
So, from this moment range is known, and OtH damage is dealt on long, but when minion B takes that unpreventable damage from Improvised Flamethrower's text

www.vekn.net/index.php/forum/6-rules-questions/30276-extrala-is-wrong-did-you-know-that--part-91?limit=10&start=20#30550

Pascal wrote:

- OtH when opposing has a Improvised Flamethrower + Maneveur/set range to long => Improvised Flamethrower does not explode.

Basically, Disarm isn't playable at long range (all the Disarm points), and damage is resolved when it is inflicted - we don't retro-check it (last point).

It wasn't long when OtH was played. It became long after. We don't go back and interfere with it then (retro-check it).

now i am even more at a loss, and i thought i just started to understand the whole shabang... :/

Pendargon wrote:

now i am even more at a loss, and i thought i just started to understand the whole shabang... :/

Handle OtH's damage when it's played. Is it long? No. No explosion. Move on.

Does it become long after? The damage effect on OtH has already been handled. Don't re-open it.

Ankha wrote:

Option 3) the current ruling, which could be summarized as "The range is known once the Determine Range step is over". It's as valid as the 2 others (and is official).

Your #3 is the same as #1 (e.g. Until the end of the Determine Range step, there is no range).

For Pascal,

So consequent questions are:

#1 Is the Determine Range step over when the range has been set by an effect? e.g. If Selective Silence is played does this end the Determine Range Step?

#2 Can Outside the Hourglass (or any other "Only usable before range is determined") be played during the Determine Range Step IF something like Selective Silence (or another effect which sets range) has been played?

#3 Can these cards be played during the Determine Range Step before the range is determined? (i.e. Can one of the "Only usable before range is determined" cards be played between maneuvers by the various minions?) If so, is the range for those effects the 'current range' (i.e. If a minion has maneuvered to long and OtH is played, is it now Ranged damage even if a minion later plays another maneuver to make the range close?)

#4 Could we just truncate all of these potential rulings (which may vary card by card) and force two facts: 1) Before the determine range step ends, there is no range (neither close or long). 2) Should all "Before Range is determined" cards be force to be played before all maneuvers? (Effectively errata'ing all of them to read "Only playable before the Determine Range Step")

Ankha,
I was attempting to particularly have Pascal answer those questions.

The main reason is that the only criteria on Selective Silence is that it is used "Before range is determined" which in a literal sense means "at any point before the end of the determine range step". So from the text ON THE CARD, it is playable once minions have begun playing maneuvers because the range is not yet determined (i.e. we have not reached the end of the determine range step) and it is an ugly affair that we need to have CRR.VI to dictate that "Before range is determined" is not read in plain English. (I would suggest as an immediate remedy to that 'oversight' that those cards all be errata'd to read "Before the determine range step". This would then make it clear, on the card, that once maneuvers are played these cards are not playable. This is one of the immediate examples of where "Keywording" has been done atrociously and never amended. (It smells again of LSJ-fiat and not having any future follow-up to clean up the keywording. The tendency of the VTES community to be happy with an 'off-the-card ruling' instead of developing a clear on-the-card text stuns me. And the dogged adherance to those off-the-card rulings is equally troubling at times.)


From this comes another moment of keywording apparently being done poorly.

(Again for PASCAL) Is there a difference between "Only usable before range is determined" and "Play before range is determined" (e.g. Between the play-window of say OtH and Devil-channel: Hands) and "Before range is determined" (the text on OtH and/or Devil-channel: Hands from Zip Gun)?

So Pascal, can we potentially remove this legacy "Keywording" and replace it with something that is not just clear but also make a clear decision (which is then applied to ALL of the relevant cards overturning whichever legacy rulings are necessary) on:

1) Is there a range before the ending of the Determine Range Step?
2) Does the sequence of playing cards, such as Outside the Hourglass, in the before range step drastically change their interactions?
Example
Vamp A plays OtH then Vamp B plays Selective Silence (and has an Improvised Flamethrower) VS Vamp A plays Selective Silence (and has an Improvised Flamethrower) then Vamp B plays OtH. Which one/s (if any) should result in an exploding Improvised Flamethrower since there is nothing in the CRR.VI which actually states where the 'range is now close/long'.


And before I get the obligatory screams of "But it has always been done XYZ way (insert Google Group references where LSJ had a debate with someone 4+ years ago)"... WHY AREN'T THOSE SPECIFIC POINTS ALREADY INTEGRATED INTO THE RESOURCES FOR PLAY (Rulebook, CRR)? WHY HAVEN'T THEY RESULTED IN A CLEAR CHANGE TO THE KEYWORDING USED IN VTES? If there isn't much of an answer to that (or the usual 'But we had an LSJ ruling (points back at Google Group)' then I'm sure you won't mind that you could getting arrested in Alabama for opening an umbrella on a public street ( link here ) even though its patently dense for that law to still exist and I doubt that any police officer enforces it (because of the stupidity of the law)