TWD and Finals report: Member of the Entourage

Ira wrote:

Not in my opinion. I think "bad decks" are either decks that reduce the amount of fun that people have when playing, or decks that have a very low chance of winning. For example, any deck that annihilates other players very quickly fits one definition of "bad deck," because now that VTES isn't published, I think people mostly play for fun. We don't have valuable tournament prizes. People often travel long distances to play games. If we generally have people playing the most brutal decks, kill fast or get killed, I think that's bad for the game as a whole. Yes, sometimes we can have decks like that, but there are plenty of times those decks don't win - get a VP or two and then die. It's not like you need to play a deck like that to win, so why choose it?

The other definition of "bad deck" is a deck that can't reasonably expect to win. Given how much table dynamics impact the situation, I think that bar is pretty low.

It is how you play the deck. Just going full speed forward in first turns is almost always bad play but not necessary a "bad deck". You win by letting other players play. People play rarely "the most brutal decks" here because those decks can be very bad. But people play "good decks" in here and you can get ousted very quickly. For me playing with "good decks" is the most entertaining and game feels very well balanced. There is huge amount of good tournament meta decks anyway. When somebody brings the Frederick the Weak multi rush deck to table the game suddenly gets very unbalanced and not fun or entertaining. So I feel I would decrease fun form everybody when playing with that deck. I enjoy when everybody really tries to win and plays "more serious decks". That is fun also and don't understand how it cannot be. So this is metagame thing.

If I may speak for Ira a little (since I was there)... the key to the 'not frightening' was the innocuous initial actions taken, i.e. gain two pool with Dark Mirror of the Mind, Mesu Bedshet etc. and then knowing when to stop.

Obviously if you are the predator, you should block the gaining pool actions but I don't think Ira was ever in that situation.

Consider the possible situations of blocking as the prey: [this is a good lesson in the hypothetical, not really for the tournament.]
Example: He has 3 minions:
1st action - gain 2 pool
If at low pool - let it go, he's trying to survive and I may need to block future actions
If at high pool - what's two more pool, I need to block his other actions.
2 action - same situation... I'll get him on the next action!
but... no third action. Turn ends.

Now, hindsight is 20/20, but probably one wants to block the first action early on. He won't lunge because its early on in the game, and he might have to do something like rescuing if you catch him.

Personally I think Ira's play was very good, and it gave me an idea for a blog post that I'm working on. Well done.

Surreal wrote:

Ira wrote:

5) Doesn't appear frightening

I think this is total metagame thing but I really don't understand how you can't appear frightening with that deck.

As noted, while Ira didn't think he was particularly successful at not appearing frightening, I think the deck did a pretty good job of that, in the following sense--yeah, as the game progressed, it got out more and more huge vampires, and generated more pool through Villeins and Dark Mirrors and whatever, but in the short term, it never really did anything that was particularly frightening. It didn't bleed for much. It didn't rush and attack folks. It didn't aggressively call votes. It didn't block much. It mostly just tooled along, growing, taking hits, getting out more guys. Yeah, in the long term, it was likely that it was going to oust someone through sheer numbers, but in the short term, it never looked particularly horrifying. Most of the actions it took were fairly benign (gain 2 pool, put some blood on an uncontrolled guy, etc). As such, the people sitting next to it were always *concerned* that it was growing and growing, but no one (apparently) ever felt the need to react really aggressively to it. As it wasn't bleeding for a lot, it wasn't hindering anyone (other than it's predator through bloat), and wasn't particularly aggressive.

In the three preliminary games, I don't think Ira ever had a particularly aggressive predator--no weenie bleed decks, no weenie rush decks, no significant S+B. Which is certainly fortunate, but sometimes happens (as he pointed out, in one round, his predator was a deck that *could* have been very damaging, a Gwendolyn IG fight deck, but it was a deck without much, if any, rush, and was a deck that was easily demolished by a speedy predator, which happened in that game). In the final, his deck was just tooling along, and his prey (Greg's multi acting vote deck) ended up doing most of the heavy lifting--he ousted 2 of the 5 players, and brought the 3rd player down to 2 pool (in a failed ousting lunge) when Ira ousted him and won. Which also happens--Ira's deck in the finals was bloating and getting out guys and looking generally inoffensive until the game was 3 players (which happened pretty quickly when it happened--the game was 5 players for an hour, and then down to 3 players in the span of less then 10 minutes)

Ira wrote:

Member of the Entourage vekn.net/index.php/event-calendar/event/6709
4/14/12
15 Players
Deck Name: Tribute to Jay 2
Winner: Ira Fay
Description: Jay Kristoff has inspired previous decks of mine (thelasombra.com/decks/twd.htm#2k7ctw1), and this deck was also inspired by him, hence the name. You can read all about his deck here: vekn.net/index.php/forum/9-event-reports-and-twd/10918-twd-the-unnamed-newark-ohio-september-24th-2011
With some research from Mephistopheles, Jay outlined 6 design goals for his deck:
1) 9-12 different vampires without a star
2) Many pool generating cards
3) Cards that move vamps from crypt to uncontrolled
4) 60 cards
5) Doesn't appear frightening
6) Unusual

I started by thinking about what +2 Pool action I could take. It's hard to get that many Art Scams, so I settled on Dark Mirror of the Mind. Then I had to figure out how to get a bunch of 8+ caps. Eternals of Sirius was the best answer I could find, and it also solved #3 since I could use Mesu Bedshet. I think I succeeded on all the design goals except #5, since it's really hard to convince people that you're not frightening when you have 5 or more 8+ caps.

When actually playing the deck, it's relatively simple. The Dark Mirror of the Mind actions just don't get blocked that often. I think 1 was blocked the whole tournament. Bring out minions as fast as possible, gain a lot of pool, ignore your predator as much as possible, and then bleed for the win when the opportunity is right.

I intended to have 10x Dark Mirror of the Mind, but could only trade for 8, so I put in an extra Lost in Crowds and Scouting Mission instead. I also took out a single Foreshadowing Destruction and put in Forgotten Labyrinth to try to keep my threat level slightly lower. Discarding or playing a Foreshadowing Destruction at any point makes people nervous. I doubt it changed much, but I was trying to stay true to the design goals. Finally, I included Gran Madre because Jay recommended it, and I liked it too.

Crypt (12)
2x Nefertiti
2x Khay'tall, Snake of Eden
1x Amisa
1x Intisar
1x Kephamos, High Priest of Marrakech
1x Kahina the Sorceress
1x Saqqaf, Keeper of the Grand Temple of Set
1x Kemintiri
1x Nehsi
1x Sutekh, The Dark God

Library (60)
Master (19)
7x Eternals of Sirius
6x Villein
2x Information Highway
1x Golconda
1x Giant's Blood
1x Ferraille
1x Opium Den

Actions (22)
8x Dark Mirror of the Mind
5x Mesu Bedshet
3x Govern the Unaligned
2x Enchant Kindred
1x Entrancement
1x Set's Curse
1x Gran Madre Di Dio
1x Scouting Mission

Political Actions (1)
1x Political Stranglehold

Allies (1)
1x Mylan Horseed

Action Modifiers (6)
3x Lost in Crowds
1x Veil the Legions
1x Cloak the Gathering
1x Forgotten Labyrinth

Reactions (6)
2x Confusion of the Eye
2x On the Qui Vive
1x Deflection
1x Redirection

Combat (5)
3x Majesty
2x Staredown

Mr. Fay,
Congratulations on your win, and thank you for thinking of me.
Something quite odd has happened here. As you were winning with this
deck on 4/14/2012, I was playing in the Ohio Valley regional qualifier with a very similar deck. You and I had no advanced communication on the subject, and I made finals but did not win. Even so, I think you will find my decklist from 4/14/2012 to be quite interesting:

Turbo Snakes

2x Sutekh, The Dark God
2x Nefertiti
Kemintiri
Nehsi
Khay'tall, Snake of Eden
Kahina the Sorceress
Saqqaf, Keeper of the Grand Temple of Set
Amisa
Kephamos, High Priest of Marrakech
Intisar


9x The Eternals of Sirius
Feraille
Giant's Blood
Information Highway
Monastery of Shadows
Opium Den
Potence
7x Villein

Conceal
Dream World
2x Enchant Kindred
2x Entrancement
Form of Corruption
Horseshoes
3x Mesu Bedshet
Mind Numb
Temptation
Thrones Crumble

Ancient Influence
2x Banishment
Neonate Breach
Political Stranglehold
Reckless Agitation
Reins of Power

Gran Madre di Dio, Italy
Mummy's Tongue

Elder Impersonation
2x Faceless Night
Lost in Crowds
2x Spying Mission
Swallowed by the Night
Veil the Legions
2x Voter Captivation

Confusion of the Eye
On the Qui Vive
Redirection

Staredown

Mylan Horseed (Goblin)

---

The coincidence is a little eerie. Your deck is better. Nice win!

DJ_Assface wrote:

Mr. Fay,
Congratulations on your win, and thank you for thinking of me.
Something quite odd has happened here. As you were winning with this
deck on 4/14/2012, I was playing in the Ohio Valley regional qualifier with a very similar deck. You and I had no advanced communication on the subject, and I made finals but did not win. Even so, I think you will find my decklist from 4/14/2012 to be quite interesting:

Wow!! That is really amazing. Thanks for sharing, Jay! That definitely made my night.

Haha... at first I was looking at Jay's deck and I was like "what??? A potence master card?" Then I realized and did a quick check... yep, Sutekh only has inferior potence. Nice.