Double Velvet Tongue - "cannot cast votes or ballots"

Velvet Tongue says:

What happens if it's played at both levels during a single referendum? (One as action modifier, one as reaction, or two different reacting minions.)

For all the similar "cannot cast..." restrictions I can find, it's either something fairly permanent that happens outside the referendum (e.g. Reality), or it's something that's based on a property of the vampire that's fairly hard to change during a referendum, like sect (e.g. Seraph, Private Audience, Cardinal Benediction). Potentially, going to torpor during a referendum would trigger the same issue, though I'm struggling to think of a way of doing that.



Two Velvet Tongues are played for a single referendum, at both levels. The inferior hits Arika, who votes in favour, with her four votes. She therefore acquires a corruption counter. Do her already-cast votes stand? Does the "cannot cast" restriction cancel her already-cast votes? If they stand, can she add more to them (such as if her controller draws a Bewitching Oration)?


My ruling-by-fiat hunch is for "cancels the votes out". But "cannot cast" as a wording seems a bar to the act of casting the vote, which she has already done. So I'm somewhat uncertain both ways.

Well, sup' Velvet Tongue is only usable *before* votes and ballots are cast.
Therefore, the problem of "what happens when it's played and a vampire has already cast votes/ballots" shouldn't happen.

EDIT:
Oh, I see your point.
Played at sup' before votes/ballots are cast, and then played at basic after votes were cast.
Well, votes were cast. Arika would still be casting her votes in favour/against. Regardless of what happens to her votes, she can play Bewitching Oration (or Dread Gaze). And if that happened, she'd still be casting her votes (8, now) in favour/against.

Pascal wrote:

Well, sup' Velvet Tongue is only usable *before* votes and ballots are cast.
Therefore, the problem of "what happens when it's played and a vampire has already cast votes/ballots" shouldn't happen.

Step 1: Superior is played, prior to the casting of votes.
Step 2: Arika has no counters on her.
Step 3: Arika casts votes.
Step 4: Inferior is played, hitting Arika and giving her a corruption counter.

Is casting votes a one-off thing that happens the moment Arika's controller says "Arika votes in favour", or a continuous act?


Actually, on that note, is the inferior:

a) For the duration of this referendum, any minion casting votes or ballots in this referendum gets a corruption counter, or
b) In response to a minion voting, play this card and give them a corruption counter, or
c) A minion has cast votes at some point earlier in this referendum (but not necessarily right now). Play this card and give them a corruption counter. (So like b, but with a longer window of opportunity to play it.)

?

jamesatzephyr wrote:

Pascal wrote:

Well, sup' Velvet Tongue is only usable *before* votes and ballots are cast.
Therefore, the problem of "what happens when it's played and a vampire has already cast votes/ballots" shouldn't happen.

Step 1: Superior is played, prior to the casting of votes.
Step 2: Arika has no counters on her.
Step 3: Arika casts votes.
Step 4: Inferior is played, hitting Arika and giving her a corruption counter.

Is casting votes a one-off thing that happens the moment Arika's controller says "Arika votes in favour", or a continuous act?

To "cast votes and ballots" is a "one-off". Once it's done, votes and ballots have been cast.

jamesatzephyr wrote:

Actually, on that note, is the inferior:

a) For the duration of this referendum, any minion casting votes or ballots in this referendum gets a corruption counter, or
b) In response to a minion voting, play this card and give them a corruption counter, or
c) A minion has cast votes at some point earlier in this referendum (but not necessarily right now). Play this card and give them a corruption counter. (So like b, but with a longer window of opportunity to play it.)

?

c)

jamesatzephyr wrote:

Potentially, going to torpor during a referendum would trigger the same issue, though I'm struggling to think of a way of doing that.

Found one.

Epikasta Rigatos is in play. (Pertinent information: Toreador Prince.)
The Treatment is played on Epikasta. (Relevant card text: "Each time this prince untaps, he or she takes 1 point of damage (damage not preventable).")
Epikasta has no blood on him.
During a referendum, Epikasta (tapped) votes in favour.
Alexandra (card text: "Once during your turn, you may tap or untap another ready Toreador.") wants Epikasta's votes out of the picture. Alexandra untaps Epikasta during the referendum. Epikasta takes one damage, and goes to torpor.

Assuming the above sequence is legal (and I can't think of a reason it isn't), what - if anything - happens to Epikasta'a votes?

I would have thought they've been cast, so they're cast for the duration of this referendum because Epikasta was ready when she cast them.

The fact she's in torpor now (and indeed, when the votes are tallied) is irrelevant by this point, as her votes were cast.

I don't think so...

Rulebook wrote:

A minion's votes and ballots can be used only when the minion is ready.

I would think that "used" is different than "cast" and even if voes are cast, he can be cancelled and I think going to torpor will cancelled votes because they can't be "used"

Hmm.. A vampire in torpor brings no vote/ballot to his/her controller.
The only change between "going to torpor forces you to abstain" vs "going to torpor nullifies whatever votes/ballots you have/get" would be things like Scorn of Adonis / Bribes.

I must admit I am open to suggestions regarding this one. I'd rather have "cast votes remain cast".

I'd agree with "Once cast, stay cast excluding Golden Rule of Cards" (i.e. Telepathic Vote Counting, etc).

This would open the door for things such as Telepathic Vote Counting to change votes that were cast by a minion now in torpor.

Pascal wrote:

Hmm.. A vampire in torpor brings no vote/ballot to his/her controller.
The only change between "going to torpor forces you to abstain" vs "going to torpor nullifies whatever votes/ballots you have/get" would be things like Scorn of Adonis / Bribes.

I must admit I am open to suggestions regarding this one. I'd rather have "cast votes remain cast".

As I understand your answer, you say that in the case described by James (with Epikasta and Alexandra), Epikasta has cast votes but now, her votes are nullify so she has 0 votes. I guess it is fine and "easy" to understand/remember...