Rötschreck

Hi there!

Canin horde
ANI: Strike: ranged; destroy equipment with first strike.

Rötschreck
Master: out-of-turn. Frenzy.
Put this card on a vampire when an opposing minion attempts to inflict aggravated damage on him or her, whether the damage would be successfully inflicted or not. Combat ends. This vampire is tapped and sent to torpor. This vampire does not untap as normal. During this vampire's next untap phase, burn this card.

rulebook 6.4.3:
Choose Strike. Each minion chooses his strike. The strike can be from a combat card, from a weapon the minion possesses, (the default) from a hand strike, or can be from any other card providing this minion a strike. If a minion has used a maneuver from a strike (either a strike card or a weapon) this round, then he cannot choose any other strike for his initial strike of the round. For additional strikes, any strike can be chosen, even if a maneuver has been used.

rulebook 6.4.5
First Strike. A strike done with first strike is resolved before a normal strike. Thus, if the opposing minion is burned or sent to torpor by a strike done with first strike, his strike will not be resolved at all. If the opposing minion was striking with a weapon that is stolen or destroyed with first strike, then the opposing minion simply loses his strike altogether.

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Scenaryo: Blocker deck with Ivory bow blocks a minion.
they pass the determine range step.

if the acting vampire uses canin horde to destroy the ivory bow (first strike) can the blocker use Rötshreck before this strike resolves? or he lost his strike by selecting the ivory bow to strike (as it is destroyed? So have rötshreck met its requirements to play or not?

since they have to announce the strikes simultanously, but starting with the acting minion?

AriusZet wrote:

if the acting vampire uses canin horde to destroy the ivory bow (first strike) can the blocker use Rötshreck before this strike resolves?

Rotschreck is played during Choose Strike. Neither strike has resolved at this point.

vekn.net/index.php/card-rulings/card-rulings-p-to-z

That wrote:

Rotschreck is played when the attempt to use aggravated damage is announced, during the strike announcement phase (before any damage prevention can be played). It can be played after the other strike is announced, however. [LSJ 19990217]

The fact that the following might happen is not relevant:

• the equipment will be destroyed or stolen
• the guy doing agg damage will be in torpor before he can do it (e.g. I'm about to deal 75 normal damage to him at first strike, he's about to do 1 agg damage to me at normal strike)
• the ally doing agg damage will be burned or incapacitated (Imbued) before they can strike
• the guy being hit by the agg damage will treat it as normal (the damage is still agg)
• the guy being hit by the agg damage is playing Strike: Combat Ends
• the guy being hit has chosen a Dodge strike
• the guy being hit can prevent damage whether from their hand or from a card in play (e.g. a Leather Jacket)

The sequence goes:

Determine Range:
As normal
Choose Strike:
A: I'm burning you with my Flamethrower
B: I'm playing Canine Horde, which does stuff at First Strike
At this point, both minions can still play cards such as Wolf Claws or ammo cards.
Rotschreck needs to have been played before you leave Choose Strike.
If Rotschreck is played, end combat and all that good stuff. Neither strike resolves. Combat is over. (Combat may be restarted or extended if you interrupt with Psyche!, Telepathic Tracking etc.)
If Rotschreck isn't played...
Resolve Strike:

AriusZet wrote:

Scenaryo: Blocker deck with Ivory bow blocks a minion.
they pass the determine range step.

if the acting vampire uses canin horde to destroy the ivory bow (first strike) can the blocker use Rötshreck before this strike resolves? or he lost his strike by selecting the ivory bow to strike (as it is destroyed? So have rötshreck met its requirements to play or not?

since they have to announce the strikes simultanously, but starting with the acting minion?

Card Rulings: Rötschreck wrote:

Rotschreck is played when the attempt to use aggravated damage is announced, during the strike announcement phase (before any damage prevention can be played). It can be played after the other strike is announced, however. [LSJ 19990217]

Blast, jamesatzephyr was faster.

A quick sidenote on the "guy treating agg as normal":
At a tournament, i was running my gotsdam deck, and i used burst of sunlight with gotsdam while blocking and rotschrecked. My predator rotshcrecked me and my cross table suddened it before i could point out the second rotschreck couldnt be played since gotsdam is immune to frenzy cards.

So, always remeber that while you can rotsxhreck a minion with armor or terra or kash with his special turned on, Gotsdam is explicitly off limits.

ReverendRevolver wrote:

A quick sidenote on the "guy treating agg as normal":
At a tournament, i was running my gotsdam deck, and i used burst of sunlight with gotsdam while blocking and rotschrecked.

This is all good.

My predator rotshcrecked me and my cross table suddened it before i could point out the second rotschreck couldnt be played since gotsdam is immune to frenzy cards.

If your predator was acting, he couldn't have played Rotschreck at all since it is an out-of-turn Master.

So, always remeber that while you can rotsxhreck a minion with armor or terra or kash with his special turned on, Gotsdam is explicitly off limits.

Or Sire's Index Finger!

ReverendRevolver wrote:

A quick sidenote on the "guy treating agg as normal":
At a tournament, i was running my gotsdam deck, and i used burst of sunlight with gotsdam while blocking and rotschrecked. My predator rotshcrecked me and my cross table suddened it before i could point out the second rotschreck couldnt be played since gotsdam is immune to frenzy cards.

I have two problems:

1) If you'd been allowed to play your Rotschreck (you had the impulse etc.), it should have been resolved. Combat would have ended. With combat ended, there are no strikes to threaten anyone, so the second one isn't playable. So either yours was a misplay (you didn't have the impulse and were accidentally hasty), or the second one was a misplay (not playable after combat).

[LSJ 20050322] (The formatting of the post is quite awkward due to some newsreader fun going on at the time between LSJ and Reyda's newsreaders. I don't think I'm mis-representing anything.)

Non-existant user wrote:

Reyda: so it is in fact impossible to have two rotschreck played in the same combat?
LSJ: Correct.

It then discusses the situation with Psyche! or Telepathic Tracking (the source of agg damage is long gone). I guess for completeness, you could Rotschreck, Sudden, Rotschreck - which doesn't appear to have happened in your situation.


2) You can play Rotschreck on Gotsdam, but he's immune to it. Immune doesn't mean "cannot be targetted", it means "the effect will do nothing to me". This is from RTR 07-07-07:

RTR wrote:

Rötschreck can be played on a vampire who is immune to Frenzy cards (uselessly, since the target is immune to it).

It applies to other Frenzy cards too.

So the second Rotschreck is not a technical misplay - it can be played on Gotsdam. The player playing it may not have realised it would have no effect, of course.



Edit to add: Consider Ex Nihilo making you immune to non-agg damage. You can still be targeted by damage-dealing effects (e.g. the ever-popular Talbot's Chainsaw). Same deal here.