Submission: Melee weapon enhancers

So recently, we had people suggesting that melee weapons might suck a bit and benefit from something to improve them , but which didn't also make guns super, super awesome.

I've had a few ideas rattling round in the back of my head for a while, and thought I'd share them, and see if they sparked any ideas for anyone else.

Quick points:

• Obviously, anything requiring a melee weapon becomes quite easily playable with Weighted Walking Stick. That might be a problem, but it might not.
• I'm not suggesting all the cards should get into the game. It's entirely feasible that you could cherry pick one or two.
• The fencing names were chosen so that a barely-sentient snake in a leather jacket on a bike can be a fencing master with a baseball bat, for added WoD immersion.

I wanted to find something along the lines of Supressing Fire (this minion with a melee weapon helps his mate by...), but couldn't find anything that quite felt right. Maybe a Bodyguard or something (give a friend extra intercept, tap to prevent some damage?). Nothing felt quite right - why do I need a melee weapon to be a bodyguard? why not a gun? why not my claws? But maybe something along those lines.



Game need: melee weapons need a shot in the arm.

Art notes: most of them fit some sort of sword play situation. A guy thwacking a guy with a sword, an axe smacking into a quarterstaff, that sort of thing.


The hope was to give some anti-S:CE tech, without it being totally cookie cutter.


Obvious utility.


Make equipping extra weapons less bothersome, but see En Garde below.


Also make equipping weapons less bothersome. When you already have a weapon, it's a rush that's still potentially interesting (+1 stealth, minion doesn't need to be tapped) but less versatile than other rushes (predator/prey only, no maneuver etc.)


Touche is the one I'm least happy with - I wanted to find something that was "This vampire has inflicted some damage, so get a nice bonus" along the lines of Disarm or Pulled Fangs. Card discarding is mechanically a somewhat novel angle for combat, but I'm not sure it's doing anything compelling.

En Garde is way too strong, stealth rush with no requirements at all, and isn't even restricted at all in what minions it can rush (barring silly cross table shennanigans), AND it also works as a concealed weapon on top of that. That would basically wallpaper all the other rushes with no requirements even if you don't have any melee weapons in your deck.

Klaital wrote:

En Garde is way too strong, stealth rush with no requirements at all, and isn't even restricted at all in what minions it can rush (barring silly cross table shennanigans), AND it also works as a concealed weapon on top of that.

What I'm trying to do is strike a balance between a card that would be good to start with and a card that's still usable in the late game. So many submissions are things like "This would be awesome if it turns up in your first 15 cards, but to do that you have to stack 6-8 of them, and the other 5-7 are going to make you stab yourself in the face, over and over."

(I'm not saying I've succeeded.)

Klaital wrote:

That would basically wallpaper all the other rushes with no requirements even if you don't have any melee weapons in your deck.

If you don't have any melee weapons in your deck (and therefore in your hand or ash heap, or already equipped), you can't play the card. If you don't have a melee weapon already equipped, the Concealed Weapon aspect isn't worded as being optional. (This was intentional.)

One thing I did consider was making it only +1 stealth when it was also an equip action, but that felt a bit clumsy. And I was wary of removing the stealth entirely, because various decks that would like melee weapons lack any significant stealth (or other options). But +1 stealth only on the equip might be doable. Or possibly restrict the rush - prey only, untapped only, tapped only, something like that.

The problem i see is melee weapons suck against combat ends and grapple. Grapple is good against sce, psyche trumps sce, but unless you use a deck just geared toward j's axe, argent baton, crimson sentinle, and or banshee ironwail, and probably using celerity and fortitude on assamites, i really would ALWAYS rather use a gun. A 44, to be precise. Any improvements to melee combat has to:
A. Be able to deal with sce
B. Be able to not suck against grapple
C. Be at least as good a choice as a 44

The only non unique melee weapon worth running is wws. I use meat hook alot as well. I feel its the best melee weapon you can conceal out.

Now, a strike like:
Cleaving Blow:
Strike with a melee weapon for strength +1 damage. Alternately, strike with a melee weapon and if the opposing minion is striking to end combat, they get no initial strike this round, and use an additional strike to end combat.
If the opposing minion plays a card restricting your choice of strikes, you may still strike with this melee weapon at-1 strength.

But, its a subject we could work on.

James, I like your ideas. This is the natural and necessary direction of melee weapon combat.

Maestro: I like Ankha's edit, but really Ankha's and James's versions do two different things. Melee weapons still need an answer to S:CE. Potence is the natural adjunct to melee weapons, but Potence's answer to S:CE is Immortal Grapple, which doesn't go with melee weapons. Therefore you either need a melee weapon master or generic minion card that deals with S:CE like James's or you need a Potence card that allows a vampire to get past S:CE and strike with a melee weapon.

(Valeren and Quietus also have a melee weapon focus, but !Salubri have Telepathic Tracking and Assamites have Psyche!.)

Balestra: I've often thought that there should be melee weapons that offer a maneuver to close. This is needed. However, the problem is costing. Giving the balestra +2 damage is way too much or would cost too much. It would a minimum of 2 pool. It's the old problem you see with the guns and the fact that some should really have fractional blood costs.

Maybe we also have to re-examine the costing of other melee weapons. Perhaps Bastard Sword/Butcher Knife should be free, Balestra costs one and then go from there. I know, I know, we can't possibly errata cards, of course, whatevs.

Sparring Partner: nice. I'm not sure I agree with Ankha's suggestion. Why tap the second vampire? As is, there's a significant opportunity cost. You have to have the Sparring Partner card and 2 melee weapons in hand. WWS doesn't require an action to equip and can't be blocked, so Sparring Partner should give a substantive advantage.

En garde: I agree that +1 stealth is too strong. Either a +0 rush with an optional equip or a +1 stealth rush for a minion that already has a melee weapon.

AaronC: Balestra is a combat card, not an equipment card. I think "+2 damage and a maneuver to close" is a perfectly fair card.

Some thoughts on melee weapons in no particular order.

Equipping with them hasn't been a problem since concealed weapon was fixed. There are successful decks leveraging concealed guns, so where are the melee weapon decks?

All melee weapons cost too much by 1 pool.

Guns come with built-in damage prevention via maneuver. This creates a situation where the minion is invincible unless the maneuver is countered. This is good! Melee weapons don't have that benefit, and they are vulnerable to steal/destroy effects, which are almost all close range.

I think the key to making melee weapons viable is to identify an advantage they could have, a niche if you will. Something that makes the choice between a sword and a .44 Magnum an interesting one. Then give it to all melee weapons.

jamesatzephyr wrote:

Maestro
Master: archetype. Trifle.
Put this card on a ready vampire you control. This vampire has +1 strength when striking with a melee weapon. In combat, if this vampire chooses a melee weapon strike and the opponent ends combat as a strike, you may tap this card (after combat ends) to deal two unpreventable damage to the opponent. A vampire may have only one archetype.

The hope was to give some anti-S:CE tech, without it being totally cookie cutter.

As melee-based CEL and AUS already have an answer to S:CE, how about something along these lines for POT:

Machismo
Combat
Requires: Potence
Cost: 1 blood

Only usable at close range before strikes are chosen.
[pot]: The opposing minion may not Strike: Dodge or Strike: Combat ends this round.
[POT]: As above, and this minion may cancel the effects of a grapple card played by the opposing minion this round (no cost is paid).

Well, at it stands this is probably too good. It would enable Theft of Vitae and Entombment fun, and Rowan Ring would beat pretty much everything...

Here's one I've been thinking of and floated to a few people.

Armed and Dangerous
[Combat] Combat
Only usable before range is determined.
This minion equips with a non-unique melee weapon card from your hand (requirements and cost apply as normal). The minion may pay part or all of the associated pool cost with his or her blood.

Traditional Combatant
Action
1 blood
+1 stealth
Put this card on the acting vampire. You may also put a non-unique melee weapon on that vampire from your hand, library or ash-heap. As a action which costs 1 blood this vampire may enter combat with an older or titled vampire.

Chivalry
Action
1 blood
+1 stealth. Archetype.
Put this card on the acting vampire. During a combat with a vampire, while this vampire has a melee weapon, they may burn 1 blood to cancel a Strike: Dodge or Strike: Combat Ends as that strike is chosen. This card is turned face down and out of play until your next untap phase is this vampire uses a ranged weapon.

Bravado
Combat
Presence
Only playable before range in the first round of a combat. Frenzy.
The minion playing this card cannot Strike: Combat Ends during this combat.

 The opposing minion must burn 1 blood when they maneuver to long range.

 The opposing minion must burn 1 blood before declaring any Strike: Combat Ends.

Artwork: One vampire goading the other into attacking them and the other lunging.