Suggestion : a V:TES format for competitive play Asetukset

Hello all, a good thing there's still an active VTES forum.

We have been brainstorming a format for V:TES in a response to the late developements which we feel have damaged the game and also several things we thought have long needed a fix. Here's a list of suggestions that our playgroup has thought and some that I have long thought about myself. There has been consideration for repercussions for the whole game but none of this has been playtested yet. The basic attempt is to make V:TES more strategically diverse and thus more fun, your mileage may, of course, vary.

In time we could simply make new cards, such as better melee weapons or something like that but currently I think the game has lost a lot of depth, so that has to be dealt with first, and making cards wouldn't be as easy.

Competitive format, first draft :

Rule changes (a final version should have the full range of rules used, of course) :
Transfers go up to 5 (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 5...) and bringing out a minion costs one transfer. I thought removal of some cards might make it necessary to boost large-caps in relation to weenies, and this - was it Ben Peal or who thought this up a long time ago? - came to mind.

Additional master phase actions provided by a minion cost minimum of one pool extra (I.E. Huitzi doesn't pay more than he already does). I feel the minions that grant additional MPA:s shouldn't have been printed, all of them (save for maybe Huitzilopochtli) are under-costed since masters are the most powerful cards in the game, and save for the odd master cancel, the master phase isn't interactive between players, it's just somebody doing whatever he pleases with strong results. Now, I'm not sure if this is enough or if it should be just a direct ban of said minions, or if it's rather some master cards that should go in addition to the ones already going.

I feel there should be some additional measures against stalling, but I don't know what they should be. I also feel self-ousting shouldn't be in the game. I think both are lame and bad sportsmanship, and especially stalling exists entirely outside the mechanics of the game. I need some input for this however, we haven't discussed these things much at all.

Events are cancellable with cards that cancel minion or master cards. Events are the least interactive cards of all in the game, the counters to them simply aren't viable even while many events grant very powerful effects, so powerful that some can end the game for the opponent. Not many decks are exactly stacked with DI's and Suddens, and those often go to other purposes anyway. I haven't discussed about this idea with anyone yet, and haven't widely considered what it's effects would be.

On to the bans (I didn't add the current bans for a second time and I haven't even considered them much since they don't see play anymore) :

- Lilith's Blessing, Golconda, Giant's Blood
I have always thought V:TES is, and should be, a game where you have scarce resources you either conserve or spend to gain better position. When you have masters that make your all minions free with Villein, ones that can grant 11 pool or deal 2 damage to somebody and a dumb luck card - who draws their GB first! better have GB in all decks... - which grants you, again, a free, full minion, that kind of thing undermines the core gameplay of V:TES. It leads to timeouts, it renders strategies incapable of dealing massive damage too weak, and it's made master composition in decks nearly identical, making a large amount of masters simply wallpaper. What do you put in a combat deck? Probably the same thing your vote, or intercept, or whatever deck has. Lilith's Blessing, Villein, Giant's Blood, and we're good to go. And there are already a lot of minion cards that grant bloat, such as voter captivation, consanguineous boon, dark mirror of the mind, govern the unalinged, and so on... I feel this is the most important thing that needs to change.

- Parity Shift
It makes other than prince-based vote strategies almost obsolete in comparison, and it grants too big an effect for a single vote. Five damage, then five pool, almost nothing else is that good. It's nowhere in the same league as the rest of the political actions. Princes are, generally, cheap, cost-effective minions even without considering the cards a prince title grant, and those too are very good. Second Tradition is excellent, way better than any archbishop card, then there's two effective bloat cards (I feel they don't see that much play perhaps because of Parity Shift? Maybe.), Alastor for Justicar which enables some strategies, Archon which, while not seeing play, is very much superior to Templar, Anathema and more... Then in addition, both Toreador and Ventrue are incredibly effective at voting, so are Brujah princes. Why build a Sabbat-based vote deck when it doesn't have access to Parity Shift? And why build a Prince-based deck without Parity Shift, hmm... There are enough effective bloat votes, and there are enough effective damage votes, Princes will be very good anyway, so no more Parity Shift.

- Pentex Subversion
If it could be reworded into allowing actions I'd like to keep it, but that's not going to happen. It's a card that's almost in every deck if for nothing else than to be able to contest it so as not to forever lose a minion against a wall deck. I think it shouldn't be here, even while I like it as an offensive card.

- Scourge of the Enochians
I don't think an event, a card that you can't prevent entering the game without some obscure, unviable card, should entirely wallpaper a form of strategy. It's too easy. The transfer rule should help even the odds with weenie strategies (no 4 1-caps first turn) and I always thought the counters to spam strategies were already solid. Not many seem to agree though. Perhaps it's consanguineous boon that make people hate spam strategies so much? Still, everything about a spam strategy is blockable. SotE? Just enters play, nothing you can do about that, and ruins your game, or actually, doesn't since you can't play a spam strategy anymore. Obviously this would be unnecessary with event cancel rule.

To be continued...

Interesting view, tho instead of banning you could merge Golconda with The Name Forgotten Fine twist to the card

Giants Bloood is not such a bad card, it's a one time deal as per se I don't see an issue in it.

Lilith's Blessing in combo with Villein is a little broken, but not for banning. Rather think outside the box, let it give 1 blood instead of 3.

I see no problem with Pentex, it's a must have card in many decks but not overwhelmingly broken.

Parity Shift is ok, it doesn't give upright the chance to gain pool, but it needs to be unblocked and to pass the vote. So why ban a card because many use it. It's counter productive to ban cards if you see that many decks contain it. Change it to a max of 3 pool anyone can take instead of how many players are playing.

Scourge of the Enochians is a welcomed card and I would never even consider banning. I still see horrifiying images of weenie presence brainwash princes or Saturday Night Special + DBR. Won't even comment on the Legacy of Pander. All those decks are still played even if this card exists so why ban a cornercase card.

Tho we see many Girls decks these days they are far then unbeatable so why ban vampires with extra master phase actions. I didn't see any voices rumbling about Cybele when she got Turbo Gem mode or Anson with first Ashurs. Game is still evolving even if it stopped with expansions. Give it time, Girls and other archetypes will soon become obsolete like old days Malks95, Turbo Arika, Euro Brujah, etc. I am not saying they are not useful just not dominating the scene as before.

Demnogonis wrote:

...Here's a list of suggestions that our playgroup has thought and some that I have long thought about myself. There has been consideration for repercussions for the whole game but none of this has been playtested yet...

I stopped reading here. Come back with some data.

Demnogonis wrote:

- Lilith's Blessing, Golconda, Giant's Blood
I have always thought V:TES is, and should be, a game where you have scarce resources you either conserve or spend to gain better position. When you have masters that make your all minions free with Villein,

Lilith's Blessing was awesome in the storyline tournament because it was on the table from the start. Other than that, most of the time it compares unfavorably with Hunting Grounds and archetypes (Bamba/Progeny decks would be the exception). Villein+Lilith's Blessing requires an early LB draw, 1 pool, 2 cards and 2 master phase actions to squeeze out an initial profit of 2 pool. I would rather take 3 free transfers from Dreams of the Sphinx.

hehe I would rather remove the +2 hand size ^,..,^ Lately it's all about hand size o.O Nobody uses Fragments anymore <.<

Demnogonis wrote:

Here's a list of suggestions that our playgroup has thought and some that I have long thought about myself.
Rule changes (a final version should have the full range of rules used, of course) :

Transfers go up to 5 (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 5...) and bringing out a minion costs one transfer. I thought removal of some cards might make it necessary to boost large-caps in relation to weenies, and this - was it Ben Peal or who thought this up a long time ago? - came to mind.

I don't see that this accomplishes much. For a crypt of all 1-caps, or a mix of 1-2 caps, it slows them down by about 1 turn for getting their initial four vampires into play (if that - consider a 1 1 2 2 initial draw; suggested rule can get a 1 and a 2 out each turn, only change from the original is that there's no option to bring out the three 1's on the first turn). For a crypt that's a mix of 2-4 caps, there's hardly a difference in how long it takes them to launch their initial draw. Has more of an impact on big cap crypts, where I don't really see that they need the help. If a big-cap deck is committed to getting started quickly, there are plenty of cards to help them do so.

Demnogonis wrote:

Additional master phase actions provided by a minion cost minimum of one pool extra (I.E. Huitzi doesn't pay more than he already does).

Seems possible if the master-heavy decks really are so much of a problem, but I'm not convinced that they are.

Demnogonis wrote:

Events are cancellable with cards that cancel minion or master cards.

Seems reasonable if Event cards are really so much of a problem, but I'm not convinced that they are. Probably cleaner to say that any effect that can cancel a Master card play can also cancel an event. But really, isn't The Uncoiling enough for such a play environment? This change would make those cancellation cards that much stronger, and it's generally a sign of a bad card or rule change if it results in certain cards showing up in almost every strong deck.

Demnogonis wrote:

On to the bans (I didn't add the current bans for a second time and I haven't even considered them much since they don't see play anymore) :

- Lilith's Blessing, Golconda, Giant's Blood

I think most people believe there's no problem with Giant's Blood, the removal of the original option (if it's already been played, you can play it with no effect) weakens it considerably. Golconda is obviously subject to abuse. In a deck that's not built to abuse it, it seems like a classic card to me : a last-ditch defense card that (when timed carefully) also has a good offensive application. I'd hate to lose that.

Demnogonis wrote:

- Parity Shift

Strong card, but I don't think it's broken. Not easy to play profitably - it forces you to play Camarilla; it forces you to have mechanisms to carefully manage your pool (which can backfire on you - duck under your prey's pool total, and have your vote delayed, blocked or cancelled and you might be very vulnerable). Possibly could change the amount to be the # of players in the game, or say that the pool gained has to be split among 2+ players, or some such, but banning is unnecessary.

Demnogonis wrote:

- Pentex Subversion

I hate this card but can't say that it needs to be banned. It's unique, it costs 2 pool, it can be dealt with by the table within a round, it can be washed or sudden'ed; and it makes possible some offensive strategies that would be harder to achieve without it.

Demnogonis wrote:

- Scourge of the Enochians

Can't say that I understand this one. Many games it will be useless, and the games where it does have an effect, it's at most going to burn one small cap vampire per round of turns at the table (unless it's played with Reversal, in which case it's a pretty specialized deck you're talking about needing to stop). Again, Uncoiling isn't enough if you're worried about countering this?