First Strike vs Blood Fury

Will Blood Fury affect a weapon strike made at First Strike?

Name: Blood Fury
[Jyhad:C, VTES:C, CE:PTr4, BH:PTr2, KMW:PB3]
Cardtype: Combat
Cost: 1 blood
Discipline: Thaumaturgy
Only usable at close range.
[tha] Strike: hand strike at +1 damage. This damage cannot be prevented by cards that require Fortitude [for]. If the opposing vampire attempts to strike with a weapon this round, he or she does no damage.
[THA] As above, but for strength+2 damage.

the1andonlime wrote:

Will Blood Fury affect a weapon strike made at First Strike?

Name: Blood Fury
[Jyhad:C, VTES:C, CE:PTr4, BH:PTr2, KMW:PB3]
Cardtype: Combat
Cost: 1 blood
Discipline: Thaumaturgy
Only usable at close range.
[tha] Strike: hand strike at +1 damage. This damage cannot be prevented by cards that require Fortitude [for]. If the opposing vampire attempts to strike with a weapon this round, he or she does no damage.
[THA] As above, but for strength+2 damage.

No, unless the Blood Fury / Blood Rage strike is done with first strike. [LSJ 20040128]

I see a problem with this ruling by LSJ.

Blood Fury's text creates a standing effect with its "if"-clause: "If the opposing vampire attempts to strike with a weapon this round, he or she does no damage."

Normally such a stated effect is not retroactive. For instance, a minion who blocks and then equips with a Sniper Rifle using Concealed Weapon or Disguised Weapon can't use the Sniper Rifle's ability to set range to long because the Sniper Rifle was not in existence when the block occurred, and thus its text was not in effect.

Sniper Rifle (relevant text extracted)
...If the bearer blocks an action, he or she may, before range is determined, set the range for the first round of the resulting combat to long...

Like Sniper Rifle, Blood Fury has an "if"-clause. If Blood Fury's "if"-clause takes effect when Blood Fury resolves, then Blood Fury retroactively "looks at" the opposing minion's strike declaration. Normally the result of an effect with an "if"- or "when"-clause does not occur unless the effect was in play when the "if"- or "when" condition occurs. Blood Fury is an exception to this.

Since Blood Fury retroactively looks at the opposing vampire's strike declaration to determine whether the vampire does damage during the damage resolution phase, logically it should not matter when that strike resolves. It should affect strikes made with First Strike.

Illustration:
Strike declaration:
Vampire A declares a strike with a Baseball Bat for 2 damage. (He attempts to strike with a weapon.)
Vampire B declares a strike with superior Blood Fury for 3 hand damage.
Strike resolution:
Non-damage effects of Blood Fury resolve. Although the "if the opposing vampire attempts to strike with a weapon..." clause only now takes effect, as currently played it looks back at strike declaration.
Damage resolution:
Vampire A does no damage.
Vampire B does 3 damage that cannot be prevented with cards that require Fortitude.

What I'm really saying is that the text of Blood Fury, Blood Rage, and Soul Burn are not correctly written.

They should say something to the effect of:
"Damage from a weapon inflicted by an opposing vampire this round is reduced to 0."

The effect from the strike should only affect the future game state (damage to resolve), not the past game state (strikes already declared).

your reasoning is ok, but the fact that the bat strike is done with first strike, means there are a "first strike resolution", and then a "regular strike resolution".
Effects that are triggered by the "regular" strike card should not take place before the ones on the "first" strike card.

But you are right, there is some kind of problme.
For example,
If minion A is acting.
Blocked by minion B.
Minion A plays sup Scorpion sting.
Minion B, plays Backstab, then selects a dodge as his strike.

Is the scorpion sting dodged ? since it took effect before the text on scorpion sting can kick in, or is there some kind of strange stuff resulting from the " *if* the opposing vampire blablah" on blood fury/blood rage ?

That's what I really want to know right now

AaronC wrote:

What I'm really saying is that the text of Blood Fury, Blood Rage, and Soul Burn are not correctly written.

They should say something to the effect of:
"Damage from a weapon inflicted by an opposing vampire this round is reduced to 0."

The effect from the strike should only affect the future game state (damage to resolve), not the past game state (strikes already declared).

I kinda agree, but then the card text you propose would change the card.

Imagine i am playing cele-stick.
If your main combat card is blood fury, there is nothing i can do : as it is worded, even if i dodge your strike, i can never really harm your vampires with blur/stick. Because this card text affects you, not me, i can't use the old "dodge this, not affected by your card text".

But i think that overall you have a point.

Reyda wrote:

your reasoning is ok, but the fact that the bat strike is done with first strike, means there are a "first strike resolution", and then a "regular strike resolution".
Effects that are triggered by the "regular" strike card should not take place before the ones on the "first" strike card.

I agree, but the way Blood Fury is actually played logically allows it. Blood Fury can go back in time before it resolves to check to see if a vampire declared a strike with a weapon. It checks the strike declaration phase of combat. Since a strike made with First Strike is declared at the same time as Combat Ends and normal strikes, there's no logical reason why the retroactive Blood Fury effect shouldn't affect it. Blood Fury doesn't check resolution, it checks declaration.

Reyda wrote:

For example,
If minion A is acting.
Blocked by minion B.
Minion A plays sup Scorpion sting.
Minion B, plays Backstab, then selects a dodge as his strike.

Is the scorpion sting dodged ? since it took effect before the text on scorpion sting can kick in, or is there some kind of strange stuff resulting from the " *if* the opposing vampire blablah" on blood fury/blood rage ?

That's what I really want to know right now

Interesting question. It cannot be dodged. Dodges resolve when the opposing strike resolves. It doesn't matter what priority the dodging minion has.

Reyda wrote:

Imagine i am playing cele-stick.
If your main combat card is blood fury, there is nothing i can do : as it is worded, even if i dodge your strike, i can never really harm your vampires with blur/stick. Because this card text affects you, not me, i can't use the old "dodge this, not affected by your card text".

Hmmm. OK, let's change what I wrote so that it explicitly affects the opposing minion, making it dodgeable. My suggestion:

"The opposing vampire inflicts 0 damage with weapons this round."

??? I think that would affect currently unresolved damage because the text goes into effect before damage resolution. It would not affect First Strike damage from a weapon. It would be dodgeable.

AaronC wrote:

Like Sniper Rifle, Blood Fury has an "if"-clause. If Blood Fury's "if"-clause takes effect when Blood Fury resolves, then Blood Fury retroactively "looks at" the opposing minion's strike declaration.

I don't get the part where you involve retroactivity.
Is it the "attempts to strike" wording that would cause it?

I agree "attempts" is unclear. My understanding of that word is that a minion "attempts to do X" between the moment he declares he's doing / he'll be doing X, and the moment when "doing X" is over. Applied here, that is: any moment from when the strike is declared till the strike is resolved, that minion is attempting to strike.