file Form of Mist: Unplayable as currently ruled?

18 Nov 2015 20:44 #74384 by Malcolm Sprye
A bit of a click bait title... but you'll see what I mean soon enough. :D

vtesone.wordpress.com/2015/11/11/did-you-know-that-part-132/

There's a ruling post here, you can read it, but it sums up to this:
You can't play form of mist at superior if you don't "need" the stealth. There's a reference to an LSJ ruling. My problem is that the ruling seems... flawed.

Talking it over with a few others we came to the following conclusions:

1. The ruling really didn't give a satisfactory explanation for how stealth could be "needed"... when there is no block attempt currently in progress. The block attempt ended, successfully, resulting in the current combat. The current opposing minion is, presumably, tapped, and therefore ineligible to be a blocker. The LSJ thread seemed to indicate that even so, you compare your stealth to that minion's intercept. Frankly, this is bizarre, breaks the rules, and makes no sense.

I would suggest that the ruling be reviewed, and revised to make it less janky and more intuitive (you're already playing a card that lets you do something not normally possible: ie continuing a blocked action... the added stealth just falls under the golden rule).

If the review does not lead to a revision, then clarification is needed:
1) Since your stealth is compared to the opposing minion's intercept, does that mean he MUST block if possible? After all, this ruling seems to assume a block attempt.
OR
2)If the block attempt is optional. Can you point at ANY legal blocker and use their intercept as a springboard to enable you to play FoM? It makes as much sense as comparing your stealth to a tapped minion's intercept.

As I said though, I think the ruling is flawed, and really FoM should just fall under the golden rule and be playable regardless.

By the way, if this seems too trivial to talk about consider this: Animalism is quite commonly played. Stanislava is still the most commonly played vampire with protean... and as it stands, her ability actually screws her.

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19 Nov 2015 00:06 #74388 by Ke.
I think that it would be simpler if the stealth ruling only applies to modifier cards.

This is what the detailed play summary says:

IV. C 2 b "Acting minion can play an action modifier card to increase stealth only if the blocking minion has at least as much intercept as the acting minion's stealth."

So perhaps it's just an oversight in the rules? — seems odd that you can't just tap a Monastery of Shadows for a non-obvious reason. With form of mist it seems irrelevant in most cases, you were blocked = you need the stealth.

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19 Nov 2015 01:24 - 19 Nov 2015 01:25 #74390 by Boris The Blade
This is completely broken. If you still need to compare your stealth to the previous blocker's interecept, then it means that he is still attempting to intercept. In that case, Shadow Body is useless, because the previous blocker can just block again.

Shadow Body
:combat:
:obt:
1 :blood:
:obt: Strike: combat ends.
:OBT: As above, and if this vampire was blocked while performing an action other than a political action or bleeding, the action continues as if unblocked.
Last edit: 19 Nov 2015 01:25 by Boris The Blade.

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19 Nov 2015 06:23 #74394 by Ankha

Ke. wrote: I think that it would be simpler if the stealth ruling only applies to modifier cards.

This is what the detailed play summary says:

IV. C 2 b "Acting minion can play an action modifier card to increase stealth only if the blocking minion has at least as much intercept as the acting minion's stealth."

So perhaps it's just an oversight in the rules? — seems odd that you can't just tap a Monastery of Shadows for a non-obvious reason. With form of mist it seems irrelevant in most cases, you were blocked = you need the stealth.

I suggest that we delete the DPS so people stop refering to it.

Anyway, let's go back to the OP.

Malcolm Sprye wrote: There's a ruling post here, you can read it, but it sums up to this:
You can't play form of mist at superior if you don't "need" the stealth. There's a reference to an LSJ ruling. My problem is that the ruling seems... flawed.

Talking it over with a few others we came to the following conclusions:

1. The ruling really didn't give a satisfactory explanation for how stealth could be "needed"... when there is no block attempt currently in progress.

I'll quote the rulebook:

rulebook wrote: Stealth can be added during an action only when needed (that is, only if the action is currently being blocked and the blocking minion has enough intercept to block the acting minion).


Is it currently being blocked? Yes (continuous tense)
Is there an acting minion? Sure.
Is there a blocking minion? Sure.
What is the acting minion stealth? What is the blocking minion intercept? Compare them to see if steath can be added.

The rest of the questions is moot.

Apart of this, do you have real questions, or are all of you just bored?

Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

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19 Nov 2015 07:13 #74401 by Jesper
This reminds me of the most "this makes really no sense"

LSJ:

Form of Mist at superior can be used to add stealth.
There is a general rule against adding stealth unless stealth is needed.
Form of Mist has no text to override that rule.
So the issue of whether the vampire needs stealth is quite relevant, your
assertion to the contrary notwithstanding.


Also known as

"I shot your raven spy doing combat and now I cant use FoM to continue, becouse I dont need the stealth anymore"

:-D
The following user(s) said Thank You: Ashur

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19 Nov 2015 08:47 #74408 by Ankha

Jesper wrote: This reminds me of the most "this makes really no sense"

LSJ:

Form of Mist at superior can be used to add stealth.
There is a general rule against adding stealth unless stealth is needed.
Form of Mist has no text to override that rule.
So the issue of whether the vampire needs stealth is quite relevant, your
assertion to the contrary notwithstanding.


Also known as

"I shot your raven spy doing combat and now I cant use FoM to continue, becouse I dont need the stealth anymore"

:-D

You're mixing "fluff lore" and rules.
Dogs are allowed to have bikes and guns per the rules. It doesn't make sense neither but it's how it is.

Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

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