Re: Combat range always close by default (close range effects available!)

According to this thread (and LSJ):

groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/browse_thread/thread/8fdf1aa852058e71/5e36e7346b877322?hl=fi&lnk=gst&q=%22Outside+the+Hourglass%22#5e36e7346b877322

The range of a combat is considered always close, if it's not changed to long. This means that combat effects that require close range (pulled fangs, disarm) are available if other conditions are met.



For example:

Outside hourglass + Majesty + Disarm OR Outside hourglass + Alpha Glint + Pulled fangs / Disarm

How about Catatonic fear + Disarm / Pulled fangs?

I'd like to hear Pascal's opinion of all of this...

mika wrote:

According to this thread (and LSJ):

groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/browse_thread/thread/8fdf1aa852058e71/5e36e7346b877322?hl=fi&lnk=gst&q=%22Outside+the+Hourglass%22#5e36e7346b877322

The range of a combat is considered always close, if it's not changed to long. This means that combat effects that require close range (pulled fangs, disarm) are available if other conditions are met.



For example:

Outside hourglass + Majesty + Disarm OR Outside hourglass + Alpha Glint + Pulled fangs / Disarm

How about Catatonic fear + Disarm / Pulled fangs?

I'd like to hear Pascal's opinion of all of this...

These rulings are valid.
Outside the Hourglass + Majesty + Disarm works.
Outside the Hourglass + Alpha Glint + Pulled Fangs works.

If your only strike is Catatonic Fear, you can't play Disarm, since, when the combat ends, you have inflicted 0 damage.

A question remains, though, which might lead to a slight rewording of Pulled Fangs / Disarm / .. : If the range is set to long after Outside the Hourglass is played, is the damage from OtH still considered "inflicted at close range"?
To solve this, I might change Disarm / ... to "Only usable at close range, if this vampire inflicted more damage ..."

Pascal wrote:

A question remains, though, which might lead to a slight rewording of Pulled Fangs / Disarm / .. : If the range is set to long after Outside the Hourglass is played, is the damage from OtH still considered "inflicted at close range"?
To solve this, I might change Disarm / ... to "Only usable at close range, if this vampire inflicted more damage ..."

That would be the second or third most awesome solution to lots of weirdness. It could also be made a bit clearer in the rulebook that there in fact is a range even before the "determine range" step of combat.

I think changing Outside the Hourglass or pre-range damage in general would be better for the future. Having a range (be it close or long) before the step where you determine range is something that feels very unintuitive to me.

I understood that there can be only one range during combat.

Applying this ruling, the damage from the Hourglass is not considered close range damage if the combat is later maneuvered or set to long, even though by default combat starts at close range and maneuvers are applied later. Go figure...

Could it be that damage from Hourglass is close range and later combat is fought and the damage is dealth long range? There's seems to be room for interpretation here...

Catatonic fear damage is dealt after the combat so 'dealing enough damage during combat' -condition is not fulfilled. Ok.

I understand what LSJ wrote about Pulled Fangs, Disarm etc, but still have a problem regarding Vampiric Disease.

My vampire is in combat with a bloodless, diseased opponent. My vampire plays Weather Control and sends the opponent to torpor before range is determined. Does my vampire get a disease counter?

As far as I understood LSJ the disease is not spread as "card text on VD is clearly using the "after range is determined" window".

Granted: my English is far from perfect so my question might be not_so_smart, but is it out of question that VD uses "after range is determined window" whereas other effects - like Disarm and Pulled fangs - don't? I must admit it puzzles me a bit cos I cant see much difference between wordings regarding the combat range.

Pulled Fangs
"Only usable at the end of a round of combat in which this minion inflicted more damage at close range than the opposing vampire. (...)"

Vampiric Disease
"(...)Each time a vampire with a disease counter is in combat at close range with another vampire, the second vampire gets a counter as well (...)"

Can someone confirm that the disease is not being spread if the combat ends before range is determined?

Amin wrote:

Vampiric Disease
"(...)Each time a vampire with a disease counter is in combat at close range with another vampire, the second vampire gets a counter as well (...)"

Can someone confirm that the disease is not being spread if the combat ends before range is determined?

It's not.

At a very simple level, when Vampiric Disease was printed, if it was based on the 'default' range, it would happen every single combat, on entering combat. Even with Fear of the Void Below (which can change the default), it's arguable that the vampire has been in combat at close range before Fear of the Void Below was played. So the text would be redundant.

[LSJ 20040827]

LSJ wrote:

> I ask this because of the interaction with effects such as Vampiric
> Disease.

If something depends on range being either close or long, then it
must wait until range is determined.