file Submission: Savoir Faire

23 Jun 2017 14:06 #82310 by jblacey
Are crypt cards in your uncontrolled region considered minions?

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23 Jun 2017 15:15 - 23 Jun 2017 15:17 #82312 by Ankha
Replied by Ankha on topic Submission: Savoir Faire v1.1

Are crypt cards in your uncontrolled region considered minions?

These are uncontrolled minions. But they can't be targeted unless stated otherwise:

Targets. If a card is played on another card, or selects or chooses or otherwise targets another card, the target card must be in play (i.e., controlled). Vampires in the torpor region are eligible targets by default, but vampires in the uncontrolled region and contested cards are not.


Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
Last edit: 23 Jun 2017 15:17 by Ankha.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Hakuron

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23 Jun 2017 15:29 #82313 by jamesatzephyr

Enkil Cog hasn't had a silver bullet yet, and one of the design principles was apparently supposed to be to include silver bullets to most cards, played or not.


But...

a) I have no idea where you're getting that principle from. Why would anyone create a design principle of creating silver bullets for cards that aren't played?

b) The proposed card isn't a silver bullet. Silver bullets have very narrow effects (such as silver bullets hurting werewolves, but not other supernatural things). The card as proposed is very broad in its effect. Yes, it might be suitable for hitting Enkil Cog, but it could affect a whole bunch of cards with 'tap to...' effects, and similar. This is pretty much not silver at all.

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23 Jun 2017 17:46 - 23 Jun 2017 17:47 #82314 by TwoRazorReign

Enkil Cog hasn't had a silver bullet yet, and one of the design principles was apparently supposed to be to include silver bullets to most cards, played or not.


But...

a) I have no idea where you're getting that principle from. Why would anyone create a design principle of creating silver bullets for cards that aren't played?


Yes, that indeed would be nonsense. But read the post again. "Played or not" is obviously referring to "silver bullets," not "most cards." Did you really misread the post, or are you being disingenuous and just wishing to argue with the poster? The next part of your reply makes me think the latter.

b) The proposed card isn't a silver bullet. Silver bullets have very narrow effects (such as silver bullets hurting werewolves, but not other supernatural things). The card as proposed is very broad in its effect. Yes, it might be suitable for hitting Enkil Cog, but it could affect a whole bunch of cards with 'tap to...' effects, and similar. This is pretty much not silver at all.


You are making up your own definition of silver bullet. A silver bullet is a simple remedy to a problem. It does not mean "something that has a narrow effect."

The proposed card is a silver bullet against Enkil Cog but also interacts with all other "tap to" effects. The same way Entrancement is a silver bullet against Carlton but interacts with all other allies. And Scourge of the Enochians is against The Embrace but interacts with all other cards with 1 or 2 capacity. And Canine Horde is against Ivory Bow/.44 Magnum but interacts with all other weapons.
Last edit: 23 Jun 2017 17:47 by TwoRazorReign.

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23 Jun 2017 19:10 - 23 Jun 2017 19:30 #82315 by jamesatzephyr


Yes, that indeed would be nonsense. But read the post again. "Played or not" is obviously referring to "silver bullets," not "most cards." Did you really misread the post, or are you being disingenuous and just wishing to argue with the poster? The next part of your reply makes me think the latter.


I read it the way I did - I am not a disingenuous liar. To read it the way you assert is apparently obvious is frankly completely ludicrous. I didn't think he meant that there was a design principle to create cards thaso just won't be played. That would require someone to be a drooling moron - we have limited resources, art etc., and a need to convince new White Wolf of commercial viability, so let's create a design principle that doesn't care whether cards will be played. That's just such utter nonsense. So I wouldn't assume he meant something that is obviously wrong.

You are making up your own definition of silver bullet. A silver bullet is a simple remedy to a problem. It does not mean "something that has a narrow effect."


The whole point of silver bullets is that they specifically demolish werewolves but not, say, zombies or genies or fairies or dragons or beholders or cyborgs, and are probably pretty much crap against them. (Otherwise everyone would just use all silver bullets all the time.) That is literally what the silver bullet metaphor is about - demolishing werewolves with highly specialised tech that is pretty terrible in most other scenarios. This is not me making anything up - this is me understanding what silver bullets are, a simple fix for a specific problem, not a wide-ranging, widely-applicable tool to dozens upon dozens of different problems.


Want to know who else thinks this? Ben Peal.
The Other Metagame

>The trick is getting the "silver bullet" to hit the target just right.
>Make the new cards too weak (Dark Influences?) and the new card
>doesn't change anything. Make it too strong (Villein?) and you've just
>replaced one strong card with a stronger card (actually, I think
>Villein is quite well designed. I just wish it was easier to get.).
>
>So, no, I haven't played with a local banned list. Nor do I recommend
>one. But the changes I advocated for are occurring. Slowly. And by
>targeted design.

The problem I see right now with V:TES is that this "evolution" you
talk about is actually creating a class of cards that exist merely for
the sake of countering each other. It's created a game layer on top
of V:TES that ends being its own minigame.

...

This doesn't feel like V:TES to me. It just feels like a mini-game
of magic bullets and magic bullet counters. I understand that there's
always going be an "A" and "Counter-A" aspect to the game (ex. stealth
vs. intercept), but it's the degree of it that's the difference here.
Stealth vs. Intercept and Damage vs. Prevention and such are mechanics
with a broad range of cards, as opposed to the extremely narrow scope
of Scourge vs. Uncoiling or Pentex vs. Wash. I don't like the silver
bullet mini-game we have, and I don't like the continued silver bullet
direction in which we're headed. I'd rather play V:TES.


The "class of cards that merely exist for countering each other" to a much greater degree than V:TES's generic mechanics (e.g. stealth vs intercept) are the silver-bullet mini-game.

So no, it's not me making anything up.
Last edit: 23 Jun 2017 19:30 by jamesatzephyr.

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25 Jun 2017 05:27 #82332 by BenPeal

Want to know who else thinks this? Ben Peal.
The Other Metagame


Jesus...did you have that one bookmarked? :)

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