Framing an Ancient Grudge on burned vampires?

Ashur wrote:

1. Player A play Framing an Ancient Grudge on Anson. He is no longer prince.
2. Player B (Ansons controller) plays Golconda Inner Peace on Anson. Anson is removed from game.
3. Player B influences out a new Anson.

Question: Is the new Anson prince?

Yes.

Ancient Grudge applies a one-off effect to that particular card. It does not affect, for example:

- the Prince title held by my Anson who is contesting your (now title-less) Anson
- the Prince title held by my second, not-contesting Anson brought into play temporarily by Illusions of the Kindred



Details of this sort of thing and LSJ rulings and FZD confirmations here: www.vekn.net/forum/6-rules-questions/48302-joseph-pander-and-soulgem-of-etrius

Assuming this works like The Rack, Contracts (that are not placed in a minion) and Incriminating Videotape,

Yes.

Similar cases: groups.google.com/d/topic/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/5sOvdxCRLTw/discussion

EDIT: james beat me to it.

Ashur wrote:

Also: Is this covered in the rulebook? Or is there a official ruling?

It is. There's a ruling I cannot find (and ask the Rules people to link) that states that different copies of the same vampire are considered different for all intents and purposes, except for contesting.

In fact, if you burn the first Anson and get him back somehow (via Necromancy, per instance), that copy would still have no title.
Same for Banishment on him.
Right, Rules guys?

Brum wrote:

In fact, if you burn the first Anson and get him back somehow (via Necromancy, per instance), that copy would still have no title.
Same for Banishment on him.
Right, Rules guys?

Possession, yes, has a title. A trip through your ash heap, library or crypt wipes the card clean. Cited over here: www.vekn.net/forum/6-rules-questions/48302-joseph-pander-and-soulgem-of-etrius

Banishment, no title. A trip through your uncontrolled region does not wipe a card clean.

vekn.net/card-rulings/card-rulings-a-to-f

That wrote:

Banishment
...
A Banished vampire will remember all effects that had been applied to him, just as contested vampires do. This includes gained or lost titles, etc. [RTR 20000501]
Note that "for the rest of the game" effects pointing at the Banished vampire (from some other source) will resume if/when the vampire comes back into play (e.g., Contract naming that Assamite). [TOM 19960210]

To skip ahead to the next question: yes, if I banish your title-less Anson and you have both that and a 'clean' copy of Anson in your uncontrolled region, you need to track which one is which. This is often easy, because this one has 5 pool on it and the other one doesn't, so we all see that you bring the same one back out. But if they were both on zero, it might be more tricky - and technically, your uncontrolled region is unordered, so you can switch the cards around. Dropping, say, a scrap of paper into the sleeve or whatever might help, or some equivalent. Or just getting the judge to validate that you have two copies both starting from zero, and you're bringing out the clean one. Of course, for some nice lingering effects, you might want to bring out the Anson who benefits from that.

jamesatzephyr wrote:

Possession, yes. A trip through your ash heap, library or crypt wipes the card clean. Cited over here: www.vekn.net/forum/6-rules-questions/48302-joseph-pander-and-soulgem-of-etrius

Duh!
Of course, otherwise Turbo decks based on or would be illegal.
And I've used those...

Sorry guys, not enough coffee.
And I'm royally pissed about last night's Euro League Final.