Torn Signpost vs Fist of Death

I dont know if it has always been like this or only in my playing groups. But back in 90s, we played that Torn Signpost had smaller effect with vampires that had built in +1 strenght. So Crusher has +1 str, then plays Torn Signpost and increases his base damage from 2 to 3. Technically, Torn Signpost had no effect on Lazverinus. Unlike Fists of Death (which costed blood and was rare)

Anyway, now Lazverinus playing Torn Signpost sets his base strenght to 5 total. And personally i dont like how it is because it makes Fists of Death unplayable. Nobody will stack it anyways and pay 2 blood.

Dont you guys think something is not right here? I am aware that there are more major balance problems in this game, but this is just what is on my mind at the moment.

No there is nothing wrong.
What you didn't take in Account is the cumulative status of fists of death.

Let s say I start a combat with the bell and 3 torn signpost and a grapple in hand.
Even if I play them three, it s mostly to cycle since Theo will have his strength set to 3.
However if I start a combat with 3 fists of death, if I play 2 of them, Theo has 5 strength for that combat. If I play all three. He has 7 str which will allow me to taste more blood back eventually.
So, your indignation is a bit overly dramatic.

(not that Fist of Death will be commonly used over Torn Signpost ; but it is definitely a possible option when you absolutely need to destroy your opponent in one solid hit)

There is two more case where Torn Signpost is less good than Fist of death :

* a Great Beast summoned with Call the Great Beast with potence sup' cannot benefit from Torn Signpost but can benefit from Fist of death. Ally able to play potence card, like Rock Cat, can do it too.

* you cannot play Torn Signpost with Preternatural Strength.

To answer the base hand damage question, i think it used to be like that, but was changed(as it should be. 1 is base strength for vamps,+1 strength is just that, not "base strength 2" so makin one become three then gettin +1 sbould be 4)
I may be mistaken, but i think some of my playgroup were confusex by that like 3-4 years back.

ReverendRevolver wrote:

To answer the base hand damage question, i think it used to be like that, but was changed(as it should be. 1 is base strength for vamps,+1 strength is just that, not "base strength 2" so makin one become three then gettin +1 sbould be 4)
I may be mistaken, but i think some of my playgroup were confusex by that like 3-4 years back.

In Jyhad, lots of cards set base hand damage. (Somewhat akin to strength today.) So Bianca said 2 hand damage. Ritual Challenge said 2 hand damage. Zack North said 2 hand damage. Bastard Sword said 2 damage. Torn Signpost said 2 or 3 hand damage. None of these could stack with each other. (Something like Fists of Death or Undead Strength could stack on top.)

In V:TES, more or less everything that set a fixed amount of damage changed it to a cumulative modifier - so Zack North with a Ritual Challenge and Bastard Sword could strike for 4 (1 base, +1 Zack, +1 Ritual, +1 Sword), when in V:TES it would be 2.

Torn Signpost's text was radically altered in V:TES to granting a strike (sort of like a mini-weapon), but was very quickly "corrected" by Tom Wylie to work like the Jyhad version. So it set your base hand damage to 2 or 3, then other modifiers went on top. So inferior Torn Signpost with Zack North is doing 3 damage a strike - 2 base, +1 Zack.

Tom wrote:

From: (Thomas R Wylie)
Newsgroups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad
Subject: Re: Official Word on Torn Sign?
Date: 9 Mar 1996 06:50:06 GMT
Message-ID: <4hr9mu$>

Torn Signpost simply resets the vampire's base hand damage; using the
boosted hand damage is not, in and of itself, a strike. I've already
corrected customer service on this.

Tom Wylie rec.games.trading-cards.* Network Representative for
Wizards of the Coast, Inc.

galliard wrote:

Technically, Torn Signpost had no effect on Lazverinus.

Never actually true (although there was some confusion). By Sabbat, Torn Signpost was setting your base hand damage to 2 or 3, and then Lazverinus was printed with "+2 hand damage" which stacked. Example:

[TOM 19951207]

Tom wrote:

> So, is this right --
> Bianca (+1 hand damage, normal potence) can now equip with a Bastard
>Sword (+1 more hand damage) and play Torn Signpost (base hand damage is 2)
>and Undead Strength (+1 more, and allows the melee weapon) to do 5 damage
>in a strike? (Whereas before the Sword and Signpost were useless to her.)

All correct.

Bianca's normal base of 1 damage (the default for vampires) is increased to 2 by Torn Signpost. Then she gets three +1 modifiers - Undead Strength, Bastard Sword, and her own +1 damage. All of them stack on top of the increased-base-hand-damage from Torn Signpost.