Balancing Ashur Tablets
10 Jul 2014 15:56 #63620
by ReverendRevolver
Lets be clear here:
This fixes the problems Ashurs causes. Liquidation and MMPA shit os why they are broken, fluid decks or streamlined decks arent as bad.
This is an easy, one word fix.
Lilliths Blessing isnt even this easy to fix.
Scarcety is a huge problem, and hopefully Steve Weick helps with that, but its not something to bam cards for, or monestary and cog go too....
Replied by ReverendRevolver on topic Re: Balancing Ashur Tablets
Solution five: Make it so it's only possible to shuffle back MINION cards.
Lets be clear here:
This fixes the problems Ashurs causes. Liquidation and MMPA shit os why they are broken, fluid decks or streamlined decks arent as bad.
This is an easy, one word fix.
Lilliths Blessing isnt even this easy to fix.
Scarcety is a huge problem, and hopefully Steve Weick helps with that, but its not something to bam cards for, or monestary and cog go too....
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10 Jul 2014 21:03 - 11 Jul 2014 13:52 #63626
by Orpheus
Point still stands.
Why did you play it ? In which type of deck ?
Replied by Orpheus on topic Re: Balancing Ashur Tablets
Actually 16% is almost exactly one in six, not five...Nearly 1 in 5 is still a LOT !!
Point still stands.
Saw some played in last Sunday's tournament.How often do you see Trochomancy played ?!
Use if quite often myself too.
Why did you play it ? In which type of deck ?
Last edit: 11 Jul 2014 13:52 by Orpheus.
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10 Jul 2014 21:04 #63627
by Orpheus
How ?
Replied by Orpheus on topic Re: Balancing Ashur Tablets
Scarcety is a huge problem, and hopefully Steve Weick helps with that
How ?
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10 Jul 2014 21:13 #63628
by Orpheus
Thank you for developping your argument thus, very interesting.
As for that last point : Ashur isn't a special tech per se, as it doesn't create a combo in and by itself, it reinforces existing combos and makes them available at the right time (for instance if you need 2 cards at a given time and have only one in hand). So you don't need to counter it and can win without it, but so many decks are just made way better by it ! If impossible or even improbable decks can becomre viable as Ankha said, it can also make already good decks rather broken.
As for the percentages, they're pretty high, but you'll recall that even at the heighth of Succubus Club not everyone played it. But the players who did play it and knew how were nigh invincible. This had to be proven by S. Lavrut and some others, because the international community didn't think it was that good, and despite being broken enough to need a ban I don't think that more then 1 player in 5 or 6 actually had one in his deck. I know I didn't (disapproved the whole thing, and maybe wasn't adept enough at using it). Still broken, though.
Replied by Orpheus on topic Re: Balancing Ashur Tablets
When the only / best way to counter a card / strategy is to adopt the same one, that card / strategy is bad for the game. In any game. Always has been, always will be.
Erm, sort of.
It is definitely the case that if a strategy is incredibly strong and the only way to survive is either to play it yourself or to play explicitly to counter it, something is probably amiss. For example, 1996 era turbo-Tomb+Soul Gem+RTI combos of hideousness basically required you to either play that (hoping to get it off faster) or to explicitly play to counter it. And the problem with playing to counter it was that that was moderately hard because bounce passed the problem to someone else, rather than actually neutering it (in the way that the errata was clearly intended to).
If a particular strategy is relatively insular in terms of its moving parts, it may also be the case that you need to either play that strategy or deliberately select cards to interact with it. For example, my long-standing grumble about Events is that there's too little tech to interact with them, like there might be if they were - say - a special type of master card, or had actions on them to burn them, or there were more cards with levels that touch events. I like interactivity, I like decks being able to bump up against each other in ways that cause interesting table dynamics, and in ways that let people trade favours. My prince in my not-a-vote deck will lend you his incidental votes. My vampire will rescue my cross-table buddy's vampire. That sort of thing is cool when you don't need special tech.
However, needing special tech is only a particular problem if you need to directly interact with that tech to do well, though. Do you need to be playing Ashur or anti-Ashur to win? Apparently 84% of tournament winning decks believe not.
Thank you for developping your argument thus, very interesting.
As for that last point : Ashur isn't a special tech per se, as it doesn't create a combo in and by itself, it reinforces existing combos and makes them available at the right time (for instance if you need 2 cards at a given time and have only one in hand). So you don't need to counter it and can win without it, but so many decks are just made way better by it ! If impossible or even improbable decks can becomre viable as Ankha said, it can also make already good decks rather broken.
As for the percentages, they're pretty high, but you'll recall that even at the heighth of Succubus Club not everyone played it. But the players who did play it and knew how were nigh invincible. This had to be proven by S. Lavrut and some others, because the international community didn't think it was that good, and despite being broken enough to need a ban I don't think that more then 1 player in 5 or 6 actually had one in his deck. I know I didn't (disapproved the whole thing, and maybe wasn't adept enough at using it). Still broken, though.
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11 Jul 2014 01:27 #63632
by ReverendRevolver
He is (again) negotiating to print.
Since current meta is all about great cards in the >$5 range, its a good thing. Deep song, eyes of argus, rego motus, target vitals and mots are in the price range and you run 3-10 in a deck most of the time.
Ashurs are in the higher $15-20s range, with preturnatural strength, touch of clarity, mind rape, purge, villein, and jake washington. Problem is Ashurs you nees in higher quantity than the rest of pricerange.
The whole thing takea away 2 attractive parts of vtes,to nwebies and outsiders: our low cost effective decks get less diverse if kep cheap, and it makes it too expensive to keep 12+ decks assembled at once.
These arent fixable things even with erratta, though, so we just keep the game ok until we get printed
Replied by ReverendRevolver on topic Re: Balancing Ashur Tablets
Scarcety is a huge problem, and hopefully Steve Weick helps with that
How ?
He is (again) negotiating to print.
Since current meta is all about great cards in the >$5 range, its a good thing. Deep song, eyes of argus, rego motus, target vitals and mots are in the price range and you run 3-10 in a deck most of the time.
Ashurs are in the higher $15-20s range, with preturnatural strength, touch of clarity, mind rape, purge, villein, and jake washington. Problem is Ashurs you nees in higher quantity than the rest of pricerange.
The whole thing takea away 2 attractive parts of vtes,to nwebies and outsiders: our low cost effective decks get less diverse if kep cheap, and it makes it too expensive to keep 12+ decks assembled at once.
These arent fixable things even with erratta, though, so we just keep the game ok until we get printed
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11 Jul 2014 04:23 #63634
by Jeff Kuta
Ashur Tablets are more than $40 each now.
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Replied by Jeff Kuta on topic Re: Balancing Ashur Tablets
Ashurs are in the higher $15-20s range...
Ashur Tablets are more than $40 each now.
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11 Jul 2014 05:43 #63635
by Lönkka
It is a +1/+2 bleed modifier that doesn't cost blood. Which by itself is nice. What makes it golden is that is nicely usable against the recursion decks, but we all knew that. (and everything else I said in thsi message).
Replied by Lönkka on topic Re: Balancing Ashur Tablets
I used it in a deck that had Necromancy and some Auspex to boot.Why did you play it ? In which type of deck ?
It is a +1/+2 bleed modifier that doesn't cost blood. Which by itself is nice. What makes it golden is that is nicely usable against the recursion decks, but we all knew that. (and everything else I said in thsi message).
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11 Jul 2014 06:57 #63636
by jamesatzephyr
Erm, that's true of a lot of powerful, tier one cards - especially those that don't have significant requirements or are generally playable. Dreams of the Sphinx is a great card. It makes lots of decks better. Blood Doll is a great card. It makes lots of decks better. Various media locations make decks better. JS Simmons and Tasha Morgan make lots of decks better. Cameraphone makes lots of decks better. Perfectionist is a good card that makes lots of decks better. One way of dealing with Dreams of the Sphinx is to play your own, contesting it - just like you could play your own Ashur, to explode it. Or you could play Sudden, Wash etc. (Oh look, more cards that are attractive to a lot of decks and make them better.) Or you could decide to just bleed the crap out of your prey instead.
But "being good" and "making decks better" and "being attractive to players" is not a problem for play. In some implementations, it can be a problem for design - Perfectionist, above, is a design issue in my opinion, in that it cramps out most of the other archetypes by being just a little too good. Ditto, some of the Target cards (Head/Vitals) - not overpowered in themselves, but they're cramping the design space for combat a bit. Every time I come up with a possible combat card that has some +damage on it, my brain goes "Why wouldn't I play Target H/V instead?" But that's not a balance problem for play.
Of the 16 decks using it, could you point to the ones that are broken by it?
This is a totally, totally, totally different thing, though.
Succubus Club caused many problems. It facilitated potentially collusive behaviour. It undermined the predator/prey dynamic, in a similar way to the seat switchers - you have the power of two predators, and my predator can't put enough pressure on me to stop me.
Ashur hopefully gives me some pool. It also hopefully gives me some cards back. If a deck is on the table that isn't expecting me to gain pool, that player is doing something wrong. If a deck is on the table not expecting me to have and play cards, that player is doing something wrong. This is totally unlike a situation where cards undermine the fundamental mechanic of "My predator started with 30 pool" becomes "My predator started with 60 pool and could bring out vampires twice as quickly. Wheee!"
Replied by jamesatzephyr on topic Re: Balancing Ashur Tablets
As for that last point : Ashur isn't a special tech per se, as it doesn't create a combo in and by itself, it reinforces existing combos and makes them available at the right time (for instance if you need 2 cards at a given time and have only one in hand). So you don't need to counter it and can win without it, but so many decks are just made way better by it !
Erm, that's true of a lot of powerful, tier one cards - especially those that don't have significant requirements or are generally playable. Dreams of the Sphinx is a great card. It makes lots of decks better. Blood Doll is a great card. It makes lots of decks better. Various media locations make decks better. JS Simmons and Tasha Morgan make lots of decks better. Cameraphone makes lots of decks better. Perfectionist is a good card that makes lots of decks better. One way of dealing with Dreams of the Sphinx is to play your own, contesting it - just like you could play your own Ashur, to explode it. Or you could play Sudden, Wash etc. (Oh look, more cards that are attractive to a lot of decks and make them better.) Or you could decide to just bleed the crap out of your prey instead.
But "being good" and "making decks better" and "being attractive to players" is not a problem for play. In some implementations, it can be a problem for design - Perfectionist, above, is a design issue in my opinion, in that it cramps out most of the other archetypes by being just a little too good. Ditto, some of the Target cards (Head/Vitals) - not overpowered in themselves, but they're cramping the design space for combat a bit. Every time I come up with a possible combat card that has some +damage on it, my brain goes "Why wouldn't I play Target H/V instead?" But that's not a balance problem for play.
AIf impossible or even improbable decks can becomre viable as Ankha said, it can also make already good decks rather broken.
Of the 16 decks using it, could you point to the ones that are broken by it?
As for the percentages, they're pretty high, but you'll recall that even at the heighth of Succubus Club not everyone played it. But the players who did play it and knew how were nigh invincible. This had to be proven by S. Lavrut and some others, because the international community didn't think it was that good, and despite being broken enough to need a ban I don't think that more then 1 player in 5 or 6 actually had one in his deck. I know I didn't (disapproved the whole thing, and maybe wasn't adept enough at using it). Still broken, though.
This is a totally, totally, totally different thing, though.
Succubus Club caused many problems. It facilitated potentially collusive behaviour. It undermined the predator/prey dynamic, in a similar way to the seat switchers - you have the power of two predators, and my predator can't put enough pressure on me to stop me.
Ashur hopefully gives me some pool. It also hopefully gives me some cards back. If a deck is on the table that isn't expecting me to gain pool, that player is doing something wrong. If a deck is on the table not expecting me to have and play cards, that player is doing something wrong. This is totally unlike a situation where cards undermine the fundamental mechanic of "My predator started with 30 pool" becomes "My predator started with 60 pool and could bring out vampires twice as quickly. Wheee!"
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11 Jul 2014 10:54 - 11 Jul 2014 11:00 #63639
by ReverendRevolver
I cut in sargon fragment with a Santaleous CEL guns deck. It was a solid Aus Cel shooty wall, but was by nature built as an anti girls deck. Tasting and palatial, also hunting ground and Rack helped him stay full. Fragment let me pick cards back up, and also play trochomancy with Santaleous or a supporter, while Asguresh could play it without Sargon.
Trochomancy is good against decks everybody hates, Imbued and Girls being the biggest table annoyers.
It involves shitty ass necromancy, thats its drawback. But its still decent.
All that said, Girls decks are slow and ponderous contraptions that time out tables and sit unoustable for like ever. Trochomancy just lets you eat away at thier resources, not oust them. Not gaining the pool matters alot.
Bannomg lilliths didnt fix the issue, and Id said LB and Ashurs need errattad before that ban.
Its not just an attractive card like TV or perfectionist, where theres no reason to play similar card X when this card is better, it works well with other cards to be a problem. Problem is solved by adding in one word to change its interaction with other cards while still staying good.
Jeff, I havent seen ashurs auctions close that high, but i dont pay that close attention either. I know some BL rares are still high but stay in one range (sirens lure, beast meld) some drop slightly (coagulated entity, nuetral gaurd) some drop alot (armer of terra) and some go up(engling fury)
Tablets go all over the place, and im not buying a tablet for the cost of several freak drives or deep somgs, or egen an eyes of argus, since all of those go in more decks so i can have more built to play with more of those.
But i do notice Ashurs not going down to a $10 rare as mmpa decks lose popularity, so i expect them to only to up.
Replied by ReverendRevolver on topic Re: Balancing Ashur Tablets
I used it in a deck that had Necromancy and some Auspex to boot.Why did you play it ? In which type of deck ?
It is a +1/+2 bleed modifier that doesn't cost blood. Which by itself is nice. What makes it golden is that is nicely usable against the recursion decks, but we all knew that. (and everything else I said in thsi message).
I cut in sargon fragment with a Santaleous CEL guns deck. It was a solid Aus Cel shooty wall, but was by nature built as an anti girls deck. Tasting and palatial, also hunting ground and Rack helped him stay full. Fragment let me pick cards back up, and also play trochomancy with Santaleous or a supporter, while Asguresh could play it without Sargon.
Trochomancy is good against decks everybody hates, Imbued and Girls being the biggest table annoyers.
It involves shitty ass necromancy, thats its drawback. But its still decent.
All that said, Girls decks are slow and ponderous contraptions that time out tables and sit unoustable for like ever. Trochomancy just lets you eat away at thier resources, not oust them. Not gaining the pool matters alot.
Bannomg lilliths didnt fix the issue, and Id said LB and Ashurs need errattad before that ban.
Its not just an attractive card like TV or perfectionist, where theres no reason to play similar card X when this card is better, it works well with other cards to be a problem. Problem is solved by adding in one word to change its interaction with other cards while still staying good.
Jeff, I havent seen ashurs auctions close that high, but i dont pay that close attention either. I know some BL rares are still high but stay in one range (sirens lure, beast meld) some drop slightly (coagulated entity, nuetral gaurd) some drop alot (armer of terra) and some go up(engling fury)
Tablets go all over the place, and im not buying a tablet for the cost of several freak drives or deep somgs, or egen an eyes of argus, since all of those go in more decks so i can have more built to play with more of those.
But i do notice Ashurs not going down to a $10 rare as mmpa decks lose popularity, so i expect them to only to up.
Last edit: 11 Jul 2014 11:00 by ReverendRevolver.
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11 Jul 2014 13:54 #63642
by Orpheus
That's great news !
If it does get printed, what form would it take ? I can imagine mostly starter sets, or LCG format where you could still play all the old cards...
Replied by Orpheus on topic Re: Balancing Ashur Tablets
Scarcety is a huge problem, and hopefully Steve Weick helps with that
How ?
He is (again) negotiating to print.
That's great news !
If it does get printed, what form would it take ? I can imagine mostly starter sets, or LCG format where you could still play all the old cards...
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