file Reins of Power and Ancient Influence rewording

19 Jan 2018 12:58 - 19 Jan 2018 13:00 #84974 by Kraus
tl;dr Reins of Power and Ancient Influence should force to choose a vampire if able, probably even the biggest benefit – discuss!

So there’s the premise. Problems I’m having with these cards:

REINS OF POWER

If a player gets killed by Reins of Power, they have the choice of not choosing a vampire (even if they could). The ‘play to win’ rule does not force them to gain the maximum effect. This leads to players giving their prey 6 pool sometimes randomly, sometimes out of spite, sometimes our of lulz, which makes the Meth. playing Reins in great disadvantage compared to a situation where their grand prey would rather be weakened.

You could say that this is just a part of the game, sure, but these things happen randomly. Random actions of spite happen, but probably should not be allowed so freely. I mean this is not just something like, “I’m pissed at you so I’ll play Fame backwards and rush!”, which happens. People tilt. That is a counter action, which requires the player to play recklessly with their own cards.

This might LEAD to that player losing the table. But it’s at their own discretion. With Reins, you know you’re already dying, so you’re trying to make (often spitefully) your killer’s life harder even if it doesn’t affect your own game anymore. In a sense, it could be argued, that choice is then non-game-related. It’s tournament meta-gaming, one could say.

Then again you could say that if you’re gaining already a big benefit out of the oust (1VP and 6(-X) pool), it’s only fine that your next drop would be harder (new prey gaining 6 pool), but that’s not exactly the intended effect of the card, is it? Also, this sort of ‘balancing’ is not evident in any other method of ousting. In a sense just because of this ‘flaw’ Anarchist Uprising becomes even more effective compared. The player knows the effects of the action fully. There’s no random elements involved.

ANCIENT INFLUENCE

AI is by no means as problematic a card as RoP, as it doesn’t kill players. Unless they’re Imbued, but that’s different. It does share the same template and design space though, only in reverse, so just for consistency I think it should receive the same treatment.

SUGGESTED CHANGE

Add MUST instead of MAY, and add a clause in parenthesis (if any) to stabilize the effects of these power cards.

The new text would read:

“Successful referendum means each Methuselah must choose a ready vampire he or she controls (if any).”

This way players with both 2 and 11 caps could choose the amount of spite they want to inflict, but it evens the swing out a bit. This still leaves space for discussion.

Other idea would be forcing the player to always choose the ready vampire they control with the highest capacity, but that then goes against the social space of VtES where you mostly have the benefit of choice.

What are your experiences on these cards? I’ve witnessed from cross table and been on the receiving end of the spite-level of these cards, not often but seen it enough to notice it, and even though I’ve taken it valiantly and like a gentleman (it IS within the rules anyways), I’m not exactly sure if that’s what we want from these cards.

Name: Reins of Power
[Anarchs:C, KMW:PAn, Third:PTr, KoT:C/PV]
Cardtype: Political Action
Successful referendum means each Methuselah may choose a ready vampire he or she controls. Each Methuselah gains 6 pool. Each Methuselah also burns an amount of pool equal to the capacity of his or her predator's chosen vampire. Only one Reins of Power can be played or called in a game.
Artist: Christopher Shy

Name: Ancient Influence
[Jyhad:C, VTES:C, SW:PT/PV, CE:C, LoB:PG]
Cardtype: Political Action
Successful referendum means each Methuselah may choose a ready vampire he or she controls. Each Methuselah gains an amount of pool from the blood bank equal to his or her chosen vampire's capacity. Each Methuselah then burns 5 pool. Only one Ancient Influence can be played in a game.
Artist: Pete Venters


"Oh, to the Hades with the manners! He's a complete bastard, and calling him that insults bastards everywhere!"
-Nalia De-Arnise

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Last edit: 19 Jan 2018 13:00 by Kraus.

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19 Jan 2018 15:49 #84976 by kschaefer
I think that the vampires chosen should be part of the terms and therefore known when the voting happens. It doesn't force vampires being chosen, but it makes it clear what's going to happen. The problem with these votes is that know one knows what's going to happen until after the vote succeeds.

If the caller of Reins would oust his prey, but the prey chooses no vampire, during the terms setting phase, the caller could vote against his own referendum.

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19 Jan 2018 16:09 #84977 by elotar
Seems to me ability to not chose a vampire was an intended effect.

:splat: NC Russia
:DEM::san::nec::cap4:

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19 Jan 2018 19:49 #84979 by thelonius reloaded
I don't see any need for rewording, especially forcing people to do something that the original card do not allow. If a player feels right in giving 6 pool to his prey for free when ousted, he can. But that player is surely a bad player which I won't never trust in a future deal.

If that player is a friend, I will take the necessary time to explain to that player that screwing other players game just "for the lulz" it's pretty annoying.

Tl;dr: play kine.

Italian National Coordinator

Lurking in the underground of Bologna, Italy

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19 Jan 2018 22:12 #84982 by mjvtes521

kschaefer wrote: I think that the vampires chosen should be part of the terms and therefore known when the voting happens. It doesn't force vampires being chosen, but it makes it clear what's going to happen. The problem with these votes is that know one knows what's going to happen until after the vote succeeds.

If the caller of Reins would oust his prey, but the prey chooses no vampire, during the terms setting phase, the caller could vote against his own referendum.


I'm no rules coordinator, but I'm pretty sure with Reins of Power, the vampire's are chosen after the referendum succeeds, after votes have been tallied. That is the way my playgroup has always played it, and in my games on Lackey as well. It is worded differently than KRC.

Kine Resources Contested
[Political Action]

Allocate 4 points among two or more Methuselahs. Successful referendum means each Methuselah burns 1 pool for each point assigned.

So you allocate 4 points first. Then you have a referendum. As opposed to Reins of Power:

Reins of Power
[Political Action]

Successful referendum means each Methuselah may choose a ready vampire he or she controls. Each Methuselah gains 6 pool. Each Methuselah also burns an amount of pool equal to the capacity of his or her predator's chosen vampire. Only one Reins of Power can be played or called in a game.

and Ancient Influence.

Ancient Influence
[Political Action]

Successful referendum means each Methuselah may choose a ready vampire he or she controls. Each Methuselah gains an amount of pool from the blood bank equal to his or her chosen vampire's capacity. Each Methuselah then burns 5 pool. Only one Ancient Influence can be played in a game

This text for Reins and Ancient Influence say that if you have a successful referendum ("successful referendum means.."), then you may choose a ready vampire....

My take is that these two votes are close to being overpowered as is, so definitely don't reword them to make them even better. I personally don't mind when my prey elects not to choose a vampire. I just ended their game, why would they choose to help me right before being ousted? The only further effect they can have on the game is screwing the guy that just ended theirs. I don't blame them for taking that opportunity, I actually expect it. Just don't use Reins of Power to oust. Use it earlier in the game or save it for your next prey. It's an awesome card either way.

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20 Jan 2018 02:17 #84984 by kschaefer

mjvtes521 wrote: I'm no rules coordinator, but I'm pretty sure with Reins of Power, the vampire's are chosen after the referendum succeeds, after votes have been tallied.


It is. I was offering an alternative to Kraus's wording change, which would require the vampires to be chosen as part of the terms. Sorry it that wasn't clear.

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