The Cryptic Treaty

Ye sure you do that, but then you are using 3 cards and 2 actions to attempt to bleed of 4. That seems a fairly inefficient way to mimic a Conditioning, especially with your big crypt size.

To me, this looks like a deck that I can mostly ignore and as we all know, they guy without a predator wins.

And Izaak, I suspect that is what is also nicknamed by someone in another thread "The Jay Kristoff Factor". I'd be happy to be your predator, and I'm also sure you won't win.

I'm puzzled why you would post up a decklist for review in the deck clinic and then wave all critique away with (paraphrased) "not true" and "you should actually see it".

Ashur Tablets in a slow-cycling, low-action, gimmicky 90-card deck is just plain bad. End of story. If it were 60 cards - different story, but it's not.

Tha/Ser is a trick deck in itself already. Adding MORE confusing tricks to it that require setup will NOT make it better. Conditioning beats the snot out of some cute 3-card 2-action combo even if said combo has a pseudo Spying Mission built in.

And if I play a classic G1/2 Lawfirm with KRC, Voter Caps and some deflections I can *completely* ignore your deck. If I play midcap Kindred Spirits, I can *completely* ignore you. If I play animalism with some Raven Spies, Sense the Savage Ways and/or Cat's Guidance, I can just block whatever I want without any fear of repercussion. If I play Neigbour John and Blackhorse Tanner, same story.

There, I just named 4 of the most common tier 1 decks that would LOVE to see this deck as a predator. If you argue it's a decent deck for a fun friday night pickup game where people play stuff like Blood Brother vote, Gargoyle Bleed or Nagaraja rush, then sure, power to you.

brandonsantacruz wrote:

Ok, so maybe it's not *completely* superfluous, merely plain superfluous. Sundervere can bleed for three without playing a card and the other doods have dominate and presence. I'd focus on keeping him (and the methuselah controlling him) alive more than building conditional +bleed in a deck that should have no trouble bleeding to begin with.

Sure. I'm not arguing for the deck's quality, just pointing out that the Weigh the Hearts are in the deck for a completely different reason than the one you were positing. I thought that might lead you to give pointers that were more relevant to the way the deck actually works, which you did, so go me.

brandonsantacruz wrote:

Now look what you made me do!

Now Look What You Made Me Do happens to be my favorite name for a warhip in Ian Banks' Culture series.

Izaak,
I actually spent most of my time arguing how you weren't understanding the point of the deck (and the same for others here). Then, you also seem to think this is a slow-cycling deck, when it is not (from experience of playing it multiple times).

This deck has taken out a AAA deck, a Lasombra Vote'n'Cap, New Ventrue Lawfirm and kept off a high-bleed predator. So from experience, I am more confident about the deck's ability than you seems to think. You doubt that, and that's fine but I'm going to push to convince you otherwise. It has won more than a few games on JOL, which is a very aggressve environment both in combat and its tendency for Tier 1 aggressive decks.

Also, I never claimed this was a Tier 1 deck. But I've found your aggressiveness in your posts a little more than just "making a forceful point".

I haven't tried to play this deck, and you have (or at least a previous version of it). So I can't say for certain. But, on paper this looks like a card flow nightmare.

Quick breakdown:
- 19 action cards, none of which are bleeds
- 6 action modifiers that require a bleed; these may as well be action cards for card flow purposes.
- 16 reactions, all of which require an untapped minion.
- no wakes, freak drives, or sources of additional untap
- 20 masters, but effectively only 15, as you'll be pitching extra Treaties.
- pool gain is average or a little below

Based on your crypt, I'd guess your average ready region would be Sundervere, one of the 6- or 7-cap Tremere, and Martin if he shows up and you can spare the pool. You need to leave a guy untapped, or your defense doesn't work.

That means if Martin shows up, you get two actions a turn; if not, you get one. It also means Martin is going to be the one playing defensively a lot of the time.

I imagine this deck would be really difficult to play if Martin wasn't available. With over 1/4 of your deck being actions, it'll be really hard to play enough to keep things moving. (You can help yourself out here by dropping Temptations on your own guys, but you don't have all that many copies, and you don't have Dolls or Vessels for fine management of their blood totals.)

I also note that if Sundervere doesn't show up, you can't get the Treaty into play, and thus can't play ANY of your Serpentis cards. You do have a bit of time, because you can bring up one of the Tremere and start reducing / bouncing, but at some point it's very likely that your hand will jam. You'll have no starting Sundervere in 80/495 ~= 14% of games.

What I'd suggest as a potential improvement is a crypt like:
3x Tupdog
3x Sundervere
1x each of Carna, Virsitania, Eugenio
3x Martin ( or 2x Martin and 1x Frontador)

That way - assuming Tupdogs go away immediately - you'll only miss out on Sundervere 11% of the time, Martin 11% of the time, and it won't be possible for you to have neither.

Tupdogs beat Converts here, IMHO, because they can at least block for a turn or play Gregory Winter/Young Bloods; they also interact nicely with Tribute to the Master. And you're already playing the right grouping.

I would also suggest that, since most of the time Ecstasy is going to be played at by Martin at inferior, you simplify matters and replace your 6 copies with 3x Diabolic Lure, 3x Hide the Heart. (For the aus outferiors, of course.) Sure, you lose the blood denial angle, but it's the same effect if Martin is playing it, and it works even without the Treaty in play.

Your combat also seems like it could use a tweak. Playing with 16 strike cards and nothing else seems painful; basically, you'll have little or no control over how many cards you'll be playing per combat.

I'm also skeptical of Cobra Fangs; it costs blood, it doesn't get past ANY combat defense, and it requires you to be hit in the face - possibly for a lot - to make it happen. Contrast with Blood Fury:

Cost, range: same for each
Versus defenses: Blood Fury gets around fortitude; they are both stopped by maneuvers, dodge, S:CE, other prevent.
Playable by: Blood Fury is playable by everyone that can play Cobra Fangs, and works before the treaty shows up.
Defensive: Blood Fury protects against weapons, and can torpor someone before they get a chance to press / add strike. Cobra Fangs does nothing.
Damage: Cobra Fangs takes 1 blood off the opposing minion now, and two off the minion of THEIR choice in their next turn - ie, someone who is not low on blood. Blood Fury does three to the guy in front of it, right away.
Combo: If the minion you Blood Fury has a Temptation and the Fury takes him into steal range, you can steal him immediately after strike resolution, causing combat to end. Doesn't work with Cobra Fangs.

I'm not saying that Blood Fury is an excellent choice - there are clear disadvantages there too - but it seems almost strictly better than the Fangs.

Overall here, I'd think about something like:
7x Theft of Vitae
6x Apporatation
3x Blood Fury

One last thing: I wonder whether Truth of 1000 Lies would be a good choice for this deck. I'm not recommending a huge stack of them - 2-6 is probably about right - but it's an incredibly versatile card. It's a surprise +2 bleed, potentially even from Martin, or it's an extra action when you really need it. It's expensive, but you do have ways of gaining blood on your minions (Theft, Cryptic Mission), and it makes it far easier to get your own guys down into Temptation range for more extra actions.