Monday Mayhem XXXIII

johannes wrote:

KevinM wrote:

Ummon wrote:

Lilith's is quite broken as it is now.

It isn't Lilith's that is the problem, its Villein.
The same thing goes for Una. She isn't the problem, Freak Drive is (and always was).

Is the gun the problem or the bullet?

Una isn't the problem because she just magnifies what was always there -- a badly written, incredibly powerful action modifier card. The Freak Drive "problem" has been discussed since Jyhad, but since success in VTES is directly related to action advantage, any issues with FD were always shoved aside in favor of allowing large vampires to ct more often, thereby seemingly leveling the paying field.

The same holds true for Lilith's and Villein, Villein being the badly written, incredibly powerful card.

KevinM wrote:

Ummon wrote:

Lilith's is quite broken as it is now.

It isn't Lilith's that is the problem, its Villein.

The same thing goes for Una. She isn't the problem, Freak Drive is (and always was).

In one case you are right in another you are wrong.

Problems are obviously freak drive and lilith's blessing.

If freak drive would be usable only once on each level, Una wouldn't be problematic as she would be unable to perform excessive multiacting.

Villein don't give you blood, without instant blood gain it wouldn't give you as much pool (as you would have to keep blood on vampire to act) just exchange blood on vampire for pool.

Una without freak drive wouldn't be scary just as villein without giant's blood and lilith's blessing and voter cap wouldn't be scary.

Lech wrote:

KevinM wrote:

Ummon wrote:

Lilith's is quite broken as it is now.

It isn't Lilith's that is the problem, its Villein.

The same thing goes for Una. She isn't the problem, Freak Drive is (and always was).

In one case you are right in another you are wrong.

Problems are obviously freak drive and lilith's blessing.

If freak drive would be usable only once on each level, Una wouldn't be problematic as she would be unable to perform excessive multiacting.

Villein don't give you blood, without instant blood gain it wouldn't give you as much pool (as you would have to keep blood on vampire to act) just exchange blood on vampire for pool.

Una without freak drive wouldn't be scary just as villein without giant's blood and lilith's blessing and voter cap wouldn't be scary.

Or, you could believe that efficiently turning blood into pool has always been a problem and that the reason you don't see complaints anymore about Minion Tap is because Villein is so much better than Minion Tap.

On the other hand, you could say that Minion Tap and Villein make large vampires viable, and that Villein is a problem only because it's so much better than Minion Tap.

Of course, I consider both Villein and Lilith's Blessing to be problems. Villein is a much stronger card than one of the most powerful cards in the game's history - Minion Tap. Lilith's Blessing is 3 blood for each of your vampires for far too little effort, which goes way beyond comboing with Villein.

Though, to be fair, a bigger problem is multiple master phase actions, which has always been broken and only feeds both of these cards.

As for Una and Freak Drive, I don't have a problem with either or in combination, at least not in the grand scheme of things, maybe if you get past the first hundred complaints about the game, one or the other would make the list.

KevinM wrote:

Ummon wrote:

Lilith's is quite broken as it is now.

It isn't Lilith's that is the problem, its Villein.

I dont actually want to turn this into a fight over which cards are too powerful and which are not. Villein is a very powerful card but it wont create more pool or blood. If I use villein 10 times my pool + blood is still at 30 total. If I use Lilith's blessing 10 times my pool + blood is at 60 total. Being trifle makes villein a very useful card in many combos but I can live with others, imho villein+liliths is the worst.
villein+giants (once in a game)
villein+golconda (needs big vampires which are removed from the game)
villein+ashur (still needs 3 ashurs and 3 master phase actions)
villein+liliths (free vampires, more counters to the table and free disciplines)

Ummon wrote:

villein+liliths (free vampires, more counters to the table and free disciplines)

Indeed!

For example weenie dominate decks get a major boost with Lilith.

Turn 1:
Get a 3 cap out
Deflect (2 blood left)

Turn 2:
Govern + Conditioning for 5 (0 blood left)

Turn 3:
Use Lilith's Blessing (again at 3 blood. And with superior dominate)
Govern + Conditioning for 6 (1 blood left)
Deflect (0 blood left)

Basically you double the initial boost you get from these guys.
Moider I tells ya!

KevinM wrote:

leveling the paying field.

When talking about an expensive card (Villein), this typo just amused the crap out of me.