Gr 5 city !Gangrel

jamesatzephyr wrote:

By focusing so heavily on the vampires, you leave earlier !Gangrel stranded, and require that later !Gangrel also have very strong specials - or are also very small, leading to duplication.

Well, a lot of !gangrel suffer from having way too diverse discipline spread. This can't be healed anyhow, except maybe by creating a !gangrel master that replace your ani / for by cel / obf or vice versa.

Then, I don't think that I have tried to do overwhelming special all over the place. +1 strength or out-of-turn acting are not that brutal.

Finally, with a non-unique and Wider view, I do believe they can be plenty numerous, with a lot of potential for opportunistic claw of the dead. mean that the first time you block without S:CE, maneuver, or something, you can be very sorry.

The thing that the vampire I have put here clearly lack in my opinion is blood management and / or surprise bleed modifier.

Finally, I would point at blood brother. No stealth, not overwhelmingly good at combat, cheap but not dirt cheap, and pretty much working. Part of the reason is the blood generation they have (to compet with villein) and the fact that you can be bleed for 4+ more or less by surprise.

If efforts is done to make !gangrel a lineage centered about having a lot of small cap in play, I believe there is a way to do it in an original fashion. I have tried to do here options for hordish stealth bleed and hordish with a bit a combat, but maybe it's still too weak and / or it need library support.

jamesatzephyr wrote:

Also, a +1 strength blurring weenie can be quite problematic, yes. Problematic for my opponent, because their vampire goes to torpor a little more easily. But also problematic for me, because that isn't making me oust someone, and I just paid 5 pool for someone who can't play a stealth action modifier to sneak by their blocker when I want to rush a particular vampire, or diablerize a particular vampire, or bleed for 1.

The difference being that with protean, you can somehow stealth a little. Not enough to get thought any dedicated effort to intercept you, but enough to be unpredictable. And it add to the forest location that give +1 stealth.

Ohlmann wrote:

Pack Wolf

Capacity 4
Sabbat. Packs wolfs are not unique and cannot use equipment. If you control more untapped ready Pack Wolf than untapped ready unique !gangrel, Pack Wolf must hunt.

When we talk about !Gangrel, breeding and mass of small vampires tend to be common themes, so this is a try to give a non-unique vampire to city !gangrel.

Their special should show the animalistic and pack behavior of thoses vampires, that revert to individualism if undiriged. I believe it's a strong disadvantage, but I may overestimate it.

It's not clear from the text but I took it to mean that if you control more pack wolves than other !Gangrel then ALL pack wolves must hunt, right?

Regardless of the idea being a fair one I don't know if it would come to add to much. 4-caps are still not all that cheap and their disciplines leave much to be desired. Perhaps making them 3-caps?

Ohlmann wrote:

Robert the badger

Capacity 5
Sabbat. While Robert is acting, he get +1 strength. He can't play action modifier.

In addition to lack consistency, I found that !gangrel kind of lack attracting small caps, especially for killing people. with +1 strength seem good enough ; it obviously need real drawbacks on a 5 cap. I may have been a bit overkill.

Give him obf and get rid of the modifier disad. 5 pool for 3 points in disciplines + conditional plus strength and a hefty disadvantage is horrid. Make him pay one additional blood for modifiers if you really think he needs a disadvantage.

Ohlmann wrote:

Plaute.

Capacity 6
Sabbat. Once per bleed action, Plaute can discard a combat card requiring or to gain +1 bleed until the end of the action.

A small-cap with good discipline spread and a special that help discard useless cards.

Seems about fair for the price, good sinergy and all.

Ohlmann wrote:

Harrying Harald.

Capacity 7.
Sabbat. After the resolution of the action of another of your !gangrel, you can tap Harrying Harald to enter combat with a minion that played a reaction. +1 strength. Sterile.

A variation on the "can enter combat with a minion" ability, coupled with +1 strength to be a real threat.

Absolutely love this one. Why is he sterile, though?

Ohlmann wrote:

Affut

Capacity 7
Sabbat. After a methuselah complete a successful action, Affut can take an action to bleed this methuselah, even during other's methuselah turn ; the minion that had just completed his action can't block or play reaction this action.

This vampire try to give ousting power to !gangrel in a special way ; you can either use him with untap (like Homunculus), or simply to bleed during your prey turn and then during your turn, to overwhelm its vampire.

Wonderful idea. I wonder if he might not even merit a +1 bleed to go with it, if we consider that he'll end up paying 1 blood every time he wants to untap (given inferior ani) during your prey's turn.

Ohlmann wrote:

Jean the human

Sabbat bishop.
Capacity 8.
!Gangrel in your uncontrolled area have -1 capacity.

His special is here to help you put another !gangrel in the ready region. One less pool by vampire may be way too much, but without bleed discipline nor clan-specific way to have more vampire in the uncontrolled region, I doubt this will be too much.

I don't know if this ability is legitimate by the rules. Even if it is, it feels too weak to actually matter much. You'll end up saving what, 2-3 pool, in the course of an entire game?

Ohlmann wrote:

Alpha

Capacity 9
archbishop of Bordeau*.
After Alpha bleed your prey, if it was successful, all your !gangrel with obfuscate gain +1 stealth for action against your prey until the end of the turn.

The idea is "he lead the pack to the war". No bleed discipline, but with the smalls gangrels put here, the +1 stealth and should help creating a real pressure.

Again, too weak for a 9-cap. Make it +1 bleed and +1 stealth and we'll be cooking with gas. (Annabelle Triabell already does the bleed part so you know it is not over the top since it only affects the weakest half of an already weak clan).


Drain

I think it could be interesting to start creating useful, but non-unique vampires for some clans and Pack Wolf seemed to be an interesting template with Harrying Harald. I don't know if I'd want to use a 7-cap (even with +1 strength) to pick off reacting vampires... but these guys seem good (even without +strength).

Pack Wolf

Group ANY


Non-Unique. Sabbat. If you control more Pack Wolves than unique Gangrel Antitribu , this vampire must hunt. After the resolution of an action taken by a Gangrel Antitribu you control, one Pack Wolf may enter combat with any minion that played a reaction during that action.

Drain wrote:

Regardless of the idea being a fair one I don't know if it would come to add to much. 4-caps are still not all that cheap and their disciplines leave much to be desired. Perhaps making them 3-caps?

The non-unique quality is hard to quantify, but examples vampires like Hermana Mayor, Horde, or Grotesque mean that 3-cap may be a bit low. Also, it would make Wren really look very bad in comparison.

But, on another hand, there is the problem that wanting to give !gangrel a way to oust by sheer number, they really need low cap or cheap way to get thoses vampires into play.

Ohlmann wrote:

The non-unique quality is hard to quantify, but examples vampires like Hermana Mayor, Horde, or Grotesque mean that 3-cap may be a bit low. Also, it would make Wren really look very bad in comparison.

But, on another hand, there is the problem that wanting to give !gangrel a way to oust by sheer number, they really need low cap or cheap way to get thoses vampires into play.

Hermanas Mayores have a lighter disadvantage (regaining blood for the BB is not too difficult) and have a much better discipline spread, with stealth, multi-acting, combat and the all-important ousting power.

Grotesques are a niche strategy that are almost unplayable anyway, they shouldn't be used as the baseline for a _good_ non-unique vampire.

Hordes are the best but, of course, are also infernal.

Having the Wolves be 3-capacity seems absolutely okay to me. Their disciplines are good for combat and little else.


Drain

would make for decent stealth because unlike most of the non-uniques they don't have either:

a) A 'delay' (e.g. Hermana Menor)
b) A 'drawback' (e.g. Slaves: Grotesque, Aabbt)
c) A short lifespan (e.g. Tupdog)
d) An extra cost (e.g. Fida'i, Hordes)

So, to offset their "Pick a fight" ability they need to have a penalty such as 'forced actions' or cannot block/ act/call politicals, etc.