Samedi/HoSk ideas

Hi all,

So a while ago I proposed several ideas for new cards for the modern-day Cappadocian offshoots (that is, the Samedi and the Harbingers), and my poor playgroup has been playing against various test decks ever since. Some of them have changed dramatically, some have stayed roughly the same, others were decided to be unnecessary. They've funnelled down into interesting selections, although there are more Samedi cards than HoSK. I was due to post them at the end of January, but life, study and work delayed this.

Anyway, the reason that I post is that with the various topics about Paradox and redesigning the game, I'm left wondering what to do with the draft write-ups? Is VEKN still planning a bloodlines expansion later this year?

Rather than post the tested ideas individually and flood this part of the forum, I was planning to attach a PDF overview file of is where I got to with the Samedi cards ideas. As I said in the earlier post, many fell by the wayside, others mutated in strange and interesting ways. Few are the same as first proposed on these forums.

It's been a long journey, fun and sometimes requiring a lot of admin work (and definitely a lot of printing, cutting and making into decks) so I'd rather post them than not, but the attachment limit is 0.1 MB and my PDF file is a bit bigger (1.44 MB). Any chance it could be increased, or is there an email address can I just email the file in to?

Naturally they reflect my own VTES experience since I started playing in 2001 with my local playgroup, and also reflect my personal view of the Samedi*, so maybe they need further tweaking, are less suitable in other groups, or others may disagree with my extrapolations based on the little that is known about the bloodline.

I have prepared a similar file for the Harbingers ideas, although I think one or two cards ideas could stand one more round of discussion and play-testing.

*I even LARPed as a Samedi for six months in a nearby 3rd Ed game to see if that provided insights....

Best wishes,

ChrisN101.

Maybe you could simply put the text into a single forum post? I look forward to seeing your tested cards! Did you get other players to give them a try, or were you the only one to play with them (just curious)?

As for the bloodlines expansion, I assume that work on it is kind of on hold while the Inner Circle talks to Paradox / White Wolf. That's most speculation, but it seems to make sense.

Didn't occur to me to just post them all in one thread because I'd made the PDF to attach

I shared around the printable card sheets with the MK group but we haven't had an opportunity to play recently for various reasons - but with the uncertainty as to what's happening now we don't know whether to continue :-/ While I've tried to keep things general, the designs probably reflect the local meta - it's a 'closed environment'. So while we've discussed, tweaked and played (thanks to the MK VTES group and the people behind dnn.vtes.net ), naturally of course anyone's free to run with them.

I'll post vampires followed by the cards separately in case there's a post limit.

None of the formatting came through and I had to redo the hyperlinks , so it's taken quite a bit of work to paste these in. Will follow-up with the other cards later today.

Note: it's easier to show example artwork than describe, so I felt that I should include 'example artwork' links. These are, however, neither recommendations nor intended to infringe the artist's copyright or intellectual property in any way. There's some amazing artist's (and their artwork) out there though.

‘Lithrac, Archon’
Clan: Samedi
Basic/Ad: Advanced.
Cap: 5
Group: 2
Disciplines: cel, for, thn, OBF
Special(s):
Camarilla: When you move Lithrac from your uncontrolled region to your ready region, you may pay a pool to search your library or ash heap for a Master: Discipline card and move it to your hand (shuffle and discard afterwards).
[merged] May enter combat with any minion as a action.
Art notes
A more combative-looking Lithrac: still looking like a zombie, but wearing a Kevlar vest under a jungle camo jacket.
Source
Lithrac , an Archon of some repute in the service of the Nosferatu Justicar Cock Robin (CotN: pp.54-55).
How does this card address a compelling game need?
The base Lithrac does not live up to its representation as an Archon, especially without advanced Thanatosis and celerity missing on his card. This formalises the "Archon" role, and for an additional pool, allows a planned discipline advancement (unless someone cancels your master card).
Did you play-test the card in a real game. Was it fun for you? Was it fun for the other players?
Yes, although this has had many iterations. Originally it was that Lithrac gained superior THN, but other players thought that this was the disadvantage of younger Samedi. Gaining basic Celerity (which Lithrac is know in the books to have) and the optional special to pay a pool to search and play a Master: Discipline card (presumably FOR or THN) seemed like useful enhancements. I see that other Advanced minions use a 'gain a level of X discipline' but personally don't like this as it's easy to forget when you're used to seeing Master cards on a Vampire (even worse if sitting across the table).
The Merged ability of turning Lithrac into a full Archon made sense given its mention in the original card text.
What kind of effect do you think it will have on the META game? Is the result desirable? Ask your play testers.
An additional Samedi with basic celerity in G2 (it’s noted that they tend to either learn Obfuscate or Celerity to become assassins) is welcome. The merged vampire is quite powerful but it feels like it reflects the character more.
Example artwork: Current basic image, flipped.

‘Maman Brigitte’
Clan: Samedi
Basic/Ad: Basic.
Cap: 9
Group: 4
Disciplines: FOR, NEC, OBF, THN
Special(s):
Independent. 1 vote (titled): When another minion you control is in combat, Maman may burn one blood once during that combat to prevent one damage to that minion.
Art notes:
There are various images of Maman Brigitte available on the internet - should be a similar artwork to The Baron however (although because she is thought to originate from Ireland due to Irish workers sharing communal space with Haitian slaves, she is often portrayed as Caucasian). Clearly, due to the Samedi blood, she would be rotting. Or, she could be using her Obfuscate to appear ‘normal’.
Source:
The White Wolf Wiki states "[Baron Samedi] was taken by the Setites with his sister Brigette to Haiti" and later "Brigette. Progeny of Macoute. Named after the Baron's wife. [BM]". In the Loa pantheon, Brigette is the wife of the Baron, and generally thought of as responsible for nourishment and healing.
How does this card address a compelling game need?
Improve amount of Samedi minions; referenced in the source materials twice but not represented. I can only speculate that if the WoD Baron and Brigitte really are 'married' (was her being The Baron's sister a lie to the Setites? – if she was Irish like in our history, it is unlikely that they could have pulled that one off, unless they were both Samedi by that point – I have no idea as to the date the Setites took them to Haiti, but possibly shortly after Lazarus had embraced them? Further speculation as to whether Lazarus embraced both, or if the Baron embraced Brigitte - going with 'Wife' to mean 'equal' meaning same generation). They may have quickly feuded or she quickly fell into torpor for no further references to be made, but that's pure speculation. Essentially she’s a series 4 version of The Baron.
Did you play-test the card in a real game. Was it fun for you? Was it fun for the other players?
The extra votes and damage prevention fit well with the ('real world') lore and shored up the Samedi deck. The extra work in merging is worth it.
What kind of effect do you think it will have on the META game? Is the result desirable? Ask your play testers.
Having a vote in the G4 series meant there was more table politics, and being able to help prevent damage to smaller-cap Samedi was also useful while they tooled up with equipment and Master cards.
Example artwork: vinegar.deviantart.com/art/Maman-Brigitte-200848853. Another image: bellalyle.deviantart.com/art/Meme-Brigitte-460158085 .

‘Maman Brigitte (advanced)’
Clan: Samedi
Basic/Ad: Advanced
Cap: 9
Group: 4
Disciplines: FOR, NEC, OBF, THN
Special(s):
Independent. [ADV] 1 vote (titled). May prevent 1 damage each combat. [MER] During your untap phase, if Maman Brigitte is ready, you may move a blood from the blood bank to any other Samedi you control.
Art notes: As per basic version of Maman Brigitte.
Source: As per basic version of Maman Brigitte.
How does this card address a compelling game need?
The second 'head' of the Ghedde family besides The Baron; called on for healing, hence the ability to prevent damage to any other minion in combat at Basic and herself at Advanced. The hunting ground ability (albeit only to another Samedi you control) when merged is a further 'nurturing' ability.
Did you play-test the card in a real game. Was it fun for you? Was it fun for the other players?
The extra votes and damage prevention fit well with the ('real world') lore and shored up the G4-5 Samedi test decks. The extra work in merging to produce a (limited) vampire hunting ground was also extremely beneficial to play and more on equal terms with other clan-based decks - it encourages her (merged) use in a Samedi deck rather than being a support vampire in a Necromancy/Fortitude deck for example.
What kind of effect do you think it will have on the META game? Is the result desirable? Ask your play testers.
Hunting ground effect: Improved the lasting power of the Samedi and, because they weren't using actions to regain blood, allowed them to actually do other things. I count this as positive. Also meant the deck could therefore participate more in the game, which improved it to my mind. Having a vote in the G4 series (2 votes when merged) meant there was more table politics.
Example artwork: vinegar.deviantart.com/art/Maman-Brigitte-200848853. Another image: bellalyle.deviantart.com/art/Meme-Brigitte-460158085

‘Lazarus, The Faithless’
Clan: Samedi
Basic/Ad: Basic
Cap: 10
Group: Unsure if better suited to group 3 or 5
Disciplines: ser, AUS, FOR, NEC, OBF, THN
Special(s):
Independent. 1 vote (titled): Lazarus gets +1 bleed when bleeding a Methuselah who controls a ready Giovanni. You and Lazarus may play cards as if he were a Harbinger of Skulls.
Notes:
As an old and powerful (but secretive) vampire, he is afforded a vote. The enhanced bleed against Giovanni is a nod to him being a candidate for The Capuchin, although his discipline access perhaps leaves his special a bit underwhelming. Various other specials were considered including simply 'While ready, his controller has +1 handsize' to ash heap manipulation. Two versions of this included staying tapped during his controllers turn to return one card from the Ash Heap to the Library, to a less powerful (because it's blockable) 'May take a +1 stealth action to return a card from your ash heap to your library'.
Art notes:
Cloaked figure. Thought this image was an ideal representation, really.
Source: White Wolf Wiki .
How does this card address a compelling game need?
He and Troglodytia are the oldest ‘Samedi’ characters (originally Cappadocian, either or both responsible for the modern bloodline). Lazarus doesn't already exist in VTES, and I think he should.
It is also logic to give him the "may play as" since he is the eldest Cappadocian (the clan that split into the Harbingers of Skulls and Samedi). The lore suggests that he is able to employ Mortis/Thanatosis/or Necromancy at range, but that made him too powerful so is not represented.
Did you play-test the card in a real game. Was it fun for you? Was it fun for the other players?
Playtesting more expensive vampires is at lot harder as it takes longer and more pool to get them out, but yes. Lazarus felt well-balanced. Well-received by others. The flexibility of being able to play as Samedi/Harbinger and having both clans' disciplines was worth the pool spend. The +1 bleed against Giovanni felt characterful, although it is somewhat of a repeat of The Baron .
What kind of effect do you think it will have on the META game? Is the result desirable? Ask your play testers.
Does not break other deck designs, but a big boost to Samedi and also would allow Samedi/Harbinger decks.
Example artwork: cvdart1990.deviantart.com/art/Flesh-to-Bone-321768637

Note: it's easier to show example artwork than describe, so I felt that I should include 'example artwork' links. These are, however, neither recommendations nor intended to infringe the artist's copyright or intellectual property in any way. There's some amazing artist's (and their artwork) out there though.

‘Thanatosis’
Cardtype: Master: Discipline
Cost: 0 pool if targeting a Samedi, 1 pool if not.
Requirement(s): Vampire you control with none or one level of Thanatosis.
Goal: As a more flexible Sanguine Instruction cannot be reprinted to allow any vampire to teach any other vampire a discipline they have at advanced, all Bloodlines need their own Master: Discipline cards.
Card text
Master: Discipline.
Put this card on a vampire you control. They gain one level of Thanatosis. Capacity increases by 1: the vampire is one generation older. Cannot be placed on a vampire with superior Thanatosis. If the vampire is not a Samedi [samedi], burn a pool.
Notes:
Necessary to stipulate the pool burn for being non-Samedi happens at the time of being played, not if a Samedi changes clan later on for whatever reason? Having examined other similar cards, perhaps Samedi should gain a blood like Proxy-Kissed? The ‘drawbacks’ are that the card must be placed on a vampire you control (unlike other Master: Disciplines) and if they are not Samedi, you pay a pool so perhaps a gained blood for Samedi would better even this out?
Flavour text
N/A
Art notes
Something abstract: ravens, skull, graveyard?
World of Darkness reference
Discipline skill card.
How does this card reinforce a strength of the clan/discipline?
Allows Samedi with inferior Thanatosis to advance. Non-Samedi with basic Thanatosis can learn advanced (but at an appropriate cost).
How does this card reinforce a weakness of the clan/discipline?
Bloodline disciplines should be hard for members not of the clan to learn. Original idea was a trifle that also took up a master action for non-Samedi, but other master discipline cards aren’t trifles, so this seemed more balanced.
How does this card reinforce the clan's/discipline's theme?
Samedi and Thanatosis are pretty much the same theme.
How does this card mitigate a weakness of the clan/discipline?
Some Samedi have basic Thanatosis. A master card is preferable to a blockable action taken by another vampire.
Should all clans and disciplines have access to all the same effects? A subset of effects (e.g. hunting grounds, stealth, etc.)?
Nearly every clan and bloodline do. Salubri Antribu get a Master card (Blooding by the Code) that grants +1 strength in addition to a level for a pool. Temporis has discipline-granting equipment (Amulet of Temporal Perception). The Giovanni have Proxy-Kissed to gain a level of Potence and Fortitude and a blood from the bank.
Does the card mimic an existing card? If so, what are the differences and how do they affect the way the card interacts with the game?
Mimics most Master: Discipline cards, but expensive for non-Samedi, partly due to the fact they are very unlikely to teach outsiders. Should be noted you also can’t play it on another players’ minions to get it out of hand.
Did you play-test the card in a real game. Was it fun for you? Was it fun for the other players?
Insofar as an Master: Discipline card can be, yes.
What kind of effect do you think it will have on the META game? Is the result desirable? Ask your play testers.
Everyone agreed that it was needed. But we really don’t like Sanguine Instruction….
Example artwork: manink.deviantart.com/art/Present-Time-395574139

‘Powerbase: Port-au-Prince’
Cardtype: Master: unique location
Cost: 1 pool
Capacity: N/A
Requirement(s): Samedi
Goal: More efficient use of resources.
Card text
Master: unique location.
During any Methuselah's master phase, you may tap this location to transfer a pool or blood to or from a ready vampire that you control who has a level of Thanatosis [thn]. Any Samedi [samedi] may steal this location for his or her controller as a action.
Flavour text
No room – no short quotes about Haiti or Port-au-Prince come to mind either.
Art notes
There’s an excellent photograph of a street in Port-au-Prince with a bonfire in the middle and a few silhouettes in the street, with possibly a church in the background (see the example artwork link). Something similar to that would be ideal.
World of Darkness reference
Baron Samedi was taken, alongside Brigitte, by the Setites to Haiti (we assume post-embrace, and Lazarus was last seen camped out in Egypt and cosy with the Setites). Haiti is therefore assumed to be The Baron’s power base.
In-game, this location (essentially a non-minion-specific Blood Doll) could represent the ebb and flow of contract payments and other resources from the powerbase.
How does this card address a compelling game need?
Enables the Samedi to make more efficient use of blood/pool movement – important in a clan that doesn’t (currently) have a Hunting Ground, and fits my (perhaps preconceived) idea about the bloodline trying to maximise what little resources they have.
While it can be used only once per turn, you can leave it untapped and then use it in your Predator’s Master phase, untap it in your Untap phase, and use it again in your Master phase. This flexibility was found to be very useful. For example, if there’s a full Samedi with Houngan or The Rack. Effectively it is a non-minion-specific versatile Blood Doll. During play testing, it was also used it to transfer pool to a torpored minion during the predator’s Master phase and again during the controller’s Master phase, which assisted another Samedi rescuing the torpored Samedi (avoiding hunting).
How does this card reinforce a strength of the clan/discipline?
Sneaky and efficient blood/pool transfers. Seems about right.
How does this card reinforce a weakness of the clan/discipline?
Doesn’t really reinforce a weakness.
Other actions to steal Powerbases which cost 0 pool come at stealth – not felt necessary to give stealth when Samedi have access to stealth from several disciplines and because the Powerbase costs a pool instead.
How does this card reinforce the clan's/discipline's theme?
As above, really. “We ain’t got much so making the best of what we’ve got”.
How does this card mitigate a weakness of the clan/discipline?
Not really, no. Helps blood transfer.
Should all clans and disciplines have access to all the same effects? A subset of effects (e.g. hunting grounds, stealth, etc.)?
The Samedi have an assumed Powerbase in the lore, and Ventrue, Giovanni/Liabon already possess Powerbases. Am surprised there isn’t a Powerbase: Paris for Toreador already: maybe in future releases?
Does the card mimic an existing card? If so, what are the differences and how do they affect the way the card interacts with the game?
It is functionally similar to the Giovanni Powerbase, Cape Verda, except that Cape Verda can be stolen by Giovanni (clan) or Laibon (sect).
Did you play-test the card in a real game. Was it fun for you? Was it fun for the other players?
Yes. Appear to be well-received and balanced.
What kind of effect do you think it will have on the META game? Is the result desirable? Ask your play testers.
Not a massive impact on Samedi decks. Appears well balanced.
Example artwork: www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2006/01/28/international/29haitiA2.ready.html

‘Haitian Gunrunner’
Cardtype: Ally
Cost: 3 pool.
Capacity: N/A
Requirement(s): Samedi
Goal: Helping Samedi-players go after their prey and cheapen combat equipment.
Card text
Unique mortal. 2 life, 1 strength, 0 bleed. Gunrunner is equipped with a gun and may strike for 1R and use ammo cards, but cannot block vampires.
When a minion controlled by your prey is attempting to equip combat equipment, tap this ally and choose an untapped minion you control; that minion gains +2 intercept and attempts to block. If a minion you control successfully equips combat equipment, tap to lower the pool cost by one (but never less than zero).
Flavour text
No room.
Art notes
General underworld-type dude. With tattoos and a gun.
World of Darkness reference
None. Extrapolated from the mercenary/assassin nature of the Samedi.
How does this card reinforce a strength of the clan/discipline?
Using their trade links from Haiti, the Samedi are able to acquire arms and armaments slightly cheaper. Similarly, they can monitor deals of known targets (prey).
How does this card reinforce a weakness of the clan/discipline?
The ally was seen as ‘background contact’, hence can’t bleed or block vampires but can help by passing arms deal information and cheapening goods – I guess useful if your prey is a low stealth equipment deck. Slightly combative in case rushed, effectively armed with a single Beretta 9mm and, I think a first, explicitly can play ammo cards.
How does this card reinforce the clan's/discipline's theme?
Mercenary/assassin theme.
How does this card mitigate a weakness of the clan/discipline?
Intercepting other player’s minions can be very difficult: the first effect enables the player to go after their prey when tooling up. The second effect helps reduce the costs of tooling up yourself.
Should all clans and disciplines have access to all the same effects? A subset of effects (e.g. hunting grounds, stealth, etc.)?
No – this is for a militant bloodline (well, the assassins rather than scholarly Samedi).
Does the card mimic an existing card? If so, what are the differences and how do they affect the way the card interacts with the game?
Toreador Antitribu have Eccentric Billionaire (same price, but non-unique, cheapens equipment, can bleed for two and can block vampires). Brujah has Arms dealer, which is free.
Also consider other unique 3-pool allies like Talaq and Mehemet (who can block vampires but are more battle munchkins), and also the Samedi's need to be able to pick on their prey beyond small stealthy bleeds. 'Combat equipment' means equipment that can be used in combat, e.g. weapons, armours (Kevlar Vest, Leather Jacket), certain combat vehicles (Hawg) etc. Other equipment such a Tapestry of Blood, Cooler etc. aren't combat-related. Still easy to get around this: +2 stealth cards are quite common given the inherent 1 stealth (Anonymous Freight); Disguised or Concealed Weapon; just wait until the ally is tapped; or play a card that causes the block action to fail etc.
Did you play-test the card in a real game. Was it fun for you? Was it fun for the other players?
Yes. Card has gone through many versions.
What kind of effect do you think it will have on the META game? Is the result desirable? Ask your play testers.
As it helps the Samedi gear up (in combination with drawing the card and playing it with Hag’s Wrinkles/Disguised Weapon) yes. Works well with Reg Driscoll. Not sure if could be used with Jack Dawson’s special (does it count as ‘equipping’?).
Example artwork: jademacalla.deviantart.com/art/charades-SR3-see-notes-136956928

‘Knowing Stone’
Cardtype: Equipment
Cost: 1 blood
Capacity: N/A
Requirement(s): Thanatosis
Goal: Cheap item to help with defensive blocking.
Card text
A minion may only have one Knowing Stone. If stolen or otherwise transferred, burn this card.
[thn] This minion gets +1 intercept when you are being bled.
[THN] This minion gets +1 intercept during a action against you (or a card you control).
Flavour text
No room.
Art notes
Knowing Stones are part of the folklore more recognised as Crystal Balls.
World of Darkness reference
Basic African/Voudoun Necromancy ritual , but I think better suited to Thanatosis given that Necromancy already has Masquer (Wraith) etc.
A slightly different version of the ritual can be found here (a Mortis ritual?).
How does this card address a compelling game need?
While some of the Samedi are able to play Spectral Divination (Nec), Steadfastness (For), and the controller can use the generic Intercept locations, it’s still quite difficult to block defensively when playing Samedi. This turns a Voudoun Necromancy (I think) WoD ritual into a useful defensive intercept card for the Samedi. Because it requires the blood of the practitioner to work (and as far as I’m aware, will only work for the person who made it) and is a delicate item, it being destroyed rather than being transferred felt a suitable restriction on use.
As Necromancy cards come from the various traditions and editions, I thought that this would be a useful ritual to ‘claim’ for the VTES Samedi. Note that rather than ‘seeing the future’ the Knowing Stone is more useful for keeping tabs on someone or something, hence the focus on helping to block
General “+1 intercept” usually requires 2 blood or 1 pool e.g. Masquer (Wraith) and Sports Bike (Raven Spy is cheap at 1 blood, but I guess it’s easier to kill than a Wraith that ignores non-agg damage), so a defensive “+1 intercept if it affects you or your cards directly” equipment card for 1 blood felt about right.
How does this card reinforce a strength of the clan/discipline?
The more mystical nature of Thanatosis/Mortis/Necromancy.
How does this card reinforce a weakness of the clan/discipline?
It’s a defensive intercept, slightly easier for Samedi to gain if they don’t have the Necromancy for Masquer (Wraith). Necromancy is generally restricted to older Samedi anyway.
It’s difficult to play intercept cards with Samedi, so by being ‘on the table’, opponents can still plan around it. What really annoys me is how common a 2 or 3-bleed at 1 stealth is – at least Nosferatu and Gangrel have Animalism for untap/bleed intercept etc.
How does this card reinforce the clan's/discipline's theme?
A Knowing Stone fits in with the clan’s occult knowledge/theme.
How does this card mitigate a weakness of the clan/discipline?
Improves defensive blocking capability for bleeds, diablerie etc.
Should all clans and disciplines have access to all the same effects? A subset of effects (e.g. hunting grounds, stealth, etc.)?
In terms of clan/discipline-based equipment, Assamites have the Ancestor’s Talisman, Serpentis users have Canopic Jar. If the Mla Watu Liabon are released with some access to Thanatosis, they too would be able to use this card.
If we look at other disciplines with rituals (Necromancy, Thaumaturgy, Serpentis), we of course have Scry the Hearthstone, Voices of the Castle, and Masquer (Wraith). Detect Authority for an Anarch with Serpentis also grants +1 intercept. Thanatosis is thus an exception amongst these disciplines – I would say “perhaps due to its bloodline status”, but the Thaumaturgy/Visceratika suggest not.
Does the card mimic an existing card? If so, what are the differences and how do they affect
The superior text is based on basic Steadfastness.
Did you play-test the card in a real game. Was it fun for you? Was it fun for the other players?
Yes. The defensive intercept worked well without changing the Samedi dynamic.
What kind of effect do you think it will have on the META game? Is the result desirable? Ask your play testers.
Gave average Samedi (e.g. no Necromancy) the chance to block bleeds and otherwise interact outside of their turn.
Example artwork: nixihix.deviantart.com/art/Scrying-Stone-294223389