Rebalancing ranged weapons

Just saying it again.

Guns should come with a maneuver (no change).
Melee Weapons should come with a built in Concealed Weapon effect.

Add some new cards to make melee weapons more deadly and you're done.

It's just fine to pack maneuver cards in your deck to try and out maneuver guns, there are plenty double utility maneuver cards.

chrisn101 wrote:

Next local VTES night is next week - will see if I can arrange a gun deck battle match and see how this works out (assuming this is meant to apply to all ranged weapons with an in-built manoeuvre).

Can you also do a round with melee weapons with a concealed weapon effect?

Bastard Sword
+1 strength each strike, a vampire can equip this weapon at the start of combat (pay cost as normal).

Melee Weapons should come with a built in Concealed Weapon effect.

Bastard Sword
+1 strength each strike, a vampire can equip this weapon at the start of combat (pay cost as normal).

This already exists.

Weighted Walking Stick.

Only usable before range is determined on the first round. Put this card on this minion and put 5 counters on this card. While in play, this card represents a melee weapon (equipment) that does strength+1 damage each strike. For each point of damage inflicted by this strike (even if prevented), remove a counter from this card. Burn this card when it has no counters. A minion can have only one Weighted Walking Stick.

TwoRazorReign wrote:

This already exists.

I think the point that he's trying to make is that Weighted Walking Stick should become a model for how all melee weapons work. So looking at Bastard Sword versus WWS, the difference would be that the former costs 1 pool but is permanent, whereas the WWS is free but temporary.

I'm not honestly sure how much I agree with the idea, but it is certainly an interesting way to power up melee weapons without trying to write a bunch of awkward cards that cancel grapples and get around Combat Ends. You equip for free, but there are still a bunch of strategies that trump yours and you are more vulnerable to hit back. Very interesting idea to think about. If anybody play tests this idea, please write up what happens!

I think the point that he's trying to make is that Weighted Walking Stick should become a model for how all melee weapons work. So looking at Bastard Sword versus WWS, the difference would be that the former costs 1 pool but is permanent, whereas the WWS is free but temporary.

How about just use Weighted Walking Stick instead of changing the game to shoehorn in a bunch of over-costed Weighted Walking Sticks?

I'm not honestly sure how much I agree with the idea, but it is certainly an interesting way to power up melee weapons without trying to write a bunch of awkward cards that cancel grapples and get around Combat Ends.

Those cards already exist. They've been written long ago and are part of the game whether you like it or not.

You equip for free...

You're not equipping for free. That's precisely what makes WWS still the superior option.

I not sure if you disagree with the idea posted (if so, no problem!), or if you are asking for clarification. If the former, then no need to read on. Glad you are enjoying the game as it is. But if you are asking for clarification on the idea that was suggested and is being discussed, then the essential concept is that guns (usually) save you cards by having a maneuver built into them and that melee weapons (usually) save you cards or actions because they can be equipped for free during the pre-range step of combat. Of course, the creator of this idea should step in and correct me if I've stated the idea incorrectly.

Glad people are talking about it, I'll be very curious to see what the VEKN designers have in mind (or if they reasonably decide to side step melee weapons for now)!

TwoRazorReign wrote:

Melee Weapons should come with a built in Concealed Weapon effect.

Bastard Sword
+1 strength each strike, a vampire can equip this weapon at the start of combat (pay cost as normal).

This already exists.

Weighted Walking Stick.

Only usable before range is determined on the first round. Put this card on this minion and put 5 counters on this card. While in play, this card represents a melee weapon (equipment) that does strength+1 damage each strike. For each point of damage inflicted by this strike (even if prevented), remove a counter from this card. Burn this card when it has no counters. A minion can have only one Weighted Walking Stick.

WWS served at the basis of this idea, so I'm pretty well informed on the existence of WWS.

Main difference is, a bastard sword is more permanent and doesn't poof after 1 blur, meaning you can put in less bastard swords in your deck than WWS (card management is often an overlooked factor).

By no means is this THE answer to melee weapon problems, I also stated to add some nifty melee cards to empower the fact that melee weapons are more deadly in source material than guns. Adding a passive concealed weapon effect is just step 1.

My aim is NOT to make melee weapons equal to guns, but different and powerful in other circumstances. Guns SHOULD have a maneuver edge and melee weapons should have something different.

If melee weapons have a concealed effect, then potence (amongst others) cards that enhance melee strikes become more interesting, something that WWS does not do (since it will be gone after the first strike). You could be done with 4-5 Bang Nakh Claws instead of 10+ WWS.

If you address maneuvers on guns and melee weapons, all you do is replace one for the other. We'll see celerity/melee weapon decks and complaints on how guns suck.

Concerning fisty melee weapons like Brass Knuckles and Bang Nakh Claws, these should be both hand and melee strikes as well. And sword like weapons could synergise with cards that avoid grapple (sword mastery/martial arts) and minor prevent (blocking/riposte).

All I am proposing is more for backwards balancing errata or new standard weapons for when VTES sees print again. I personally see no other way to "fix" melee vs. guns.

Having the debate is good though, but please realise that many small increment ideas are equally good if not better than a single silver bullet fix