Submission: Elise

Name: Elise
Capacity: 10
Cardtype: Vampire
Clan:
Discipline:
Group: 5
Camarilla: +1 Bleed. 2 votes (titled). Elise can play and use cards requiring a title or sect as if she had that title or sect. If Elise is ready, she can burn a blood to give another vampire +1 stealth. Toreador and Toreador Antitribu can not block Elise. Elise can not block actions. Infernal.

Art notes: She is described as one of the most beautiful vampires and that her presence triggers the Toreador and Toreador antitribu clan disadvantage.

World of Darkness Reference: She is the original Daughter of Cacophony, created by the Baali as a weapon against the Toreador. Her story is detailed (several pages) in the Bloodline Book: Daughter of Cacophony.

How does this card address a compelling game need?: 1) She is a high capacity Daughter of Cacophony (their current is only 8 capacity). 2) She has a very clear use in political decks with both a vote push and stealth options in groups 4-5. 3) She fits very well into a Baali or a Follower of Set deck as she has all in clan disciplines at superior for all three clans. 4) Her ability is flexible but requires another vampire. 4) The means she crosses over will with Scout Youngwood. 5) Her abilities are both intuitive and thematic. 6) My hope is that she will inspire people to create more versatile political decks, especially with cross over options for Followers of Set and Baali.

Created by:
Justin Lacey

Update: July 27th 2017
She was way overpowered and under-costed.

10 Cap = +12
6 diff Disc = +1
Infernal = +3
Cannot Block = +1
Disc = -12
+1 Bleed = -1.5
2 votes = -1
+1 Stealth = -2
Blood for Stealth = +0.5
Usable Multiple Times on the same action = -0.5
Usable on Multiple Vampires = -0.5
Usable on vampires controlled by other players = -0.5
Play cards of other Sects = -0.5
Play cards of other titles = -0.5

Total + = 17.5
Total - = -19

Total = -1.5

Good and Bad.

Good = 2 votes and +1 Bleed great combination for a 10 cap.
Bad = Cards of other sects and titles, wasted and unnecessary if she had a title. +1 stealth per vampire per turn, would have been better. Most likely she will be using for vote stealth anyway, she has access to Cloak the Gathering and Veil of Legions if she needs more than one. The blood mechanic on the ability does not do enough to prevent abuse, since refilling her is so easy. Really her ability should probably be something like +1 stealth only usable on other vampires.

Here is the math for the new design,

10 Cap = +12
6 diff Disc = +1
Infernal = +3
Cannot Block = +1
Disc = -12
+1 Bleed = -1.5
Prince = -1
+1 stealth = -2
Usable on vampires controlled by other players = -0.5

Total + = 17
Total - = -17

The interesting interaction is that she can give others stealth but since she can't block, the Methuselah needs unlock (for the vampires she is giving stealth to) or forgoes blocking at all.

Elise
10 Capacity Group 5

Camarilla Prince of Paris: While ready, Elise can once per turn give another vampire +1 stealth. Elise cannot block. +1 Bleed. Infernal

Update: August 24th 2017
My initial fear was that she would be partner for Nergal, however what I found is that Nergal runs Call the Great Beast/Soul Gem of Etrius and wouldn't run Elise. What Elise is really good is for large Vote decks that can't afford card slots for stealth like Ventrue/Toreador/Ishtarri/Daughters. Unfortunately she usually doesn't make the cut into Follower of Set decks because she can't be targeted by The Eternals of Sirius.

The original design of this vampire is that she is very active, with multi-action options and innate votes, a powerful support ability and is expensive. What I found is that the ability is really strong even with the disadvantages. The ability needed to be toned down and I decided to the best way to do that is to require a blood cost. This cost is very relevant as she will find herself as the target of Villein. In additional, the ability was reworded to match other existing ability templates. It is way more important that the ability cost blood and the fact that it can be used on multiple actions is considerably less relevant. The key difference with Montano's ability is that Elise cannot use it on allies and cannot use it on herself.

My thoughts:
She should never be the first vampire you influence out. She provides no defense, meaning if she is your only ready vampire.. you are in real trouble. However if your goal is vote push, she is just as good as an IC member.

Elise
10 Capacity Group 5

Camarilla Prince of Paris: Once each action, Elise may burn 1 blood to give +1 stealth to another vampire. Elise cannot block. +1 Bleed. Infernal

I am going to go back through my submissions for length. I am guilty of exceeding the requirements.

This is part of my first pass.

Elise
10 Capacity Group 5

Camarilla Elise can burn a blood to give another minion +1 stealth. May call a vote ignoring sect or title requirements. 2 votes (titled) +1 Bleed Infernal

Nice attempt with shortening texts! However, I'm pretty sure we're trying to have complete sentences first and foremost. That is the only way to make sure we're consistent with the meanings and effects.

Camarilla. 2 votes (titled). While ready, Elise can burn a blood to give another vampire +1 stealth. She can play cards requiring sects or titles as if she had them. She cannot block. +1 Bleed. Infernal.

Remember that consistent numeric effects like Bleed and Strength are always at the end, as is Infernal and other keywords. Votes, however, are always at the beginning of the text. I'm pretty sure you want to have the 'while ready' clause for the effect just to make sure it's roughly balanced.

I wonder if we're allowed to use only symbols for clans in text? That would greatly reduce the needed space for cards: and instead of Toreador and Toreador Antitribu, for example.

So much for formatting though.

She's basically a G5 Montano for with Obfuscate and without Baltimore Purge shenanigans. Sure, 10 and 11 caps should be powerful, but I'm wondering if G5 really needs her (and if she'd break the group). G5 is already home for the most powerful Baali (who make for pretty efficient voters as is), as well as arguably one of the most powerful vote crypts (housing Orlando Oriundus, Undele, Lutz, the notorious Tomato Head...). Giving that crypt a consistent stealth engine that doesn't require cards might be pushing the power level of that archetype just a bit too far.

It should be play tested though. I'm just saying that we should be very careful when designing cards with constant abilities and votes for G5.

G3 is out of the question because of Montano.

That leaves us with G1, where I'd gladly accept new vampires for extra boosts. Elise would fit right in, I think, with G2 Baali and Followers of Set just next to her, and G1 Toreador and Ventrue right there (who'd probably need a bit more love somehow [no, not looking at you, Anson]). But if VEKN indeed does refrain from taking in new G1 vampires, G5 might be the right one for you.

She IS interesting, I'll give you that. She also gives Daughters of Cacophony a new angle, even if Scout has been there to address that for some time now.

Her power level should be looked at very, very carefully in play testing if she'd even get that far.

Kraus wrote:

Nice attempt with shortening texts! However, I'm pretty sure we're trying to have complete sentences first and foremost. That is the only way to make sure we're consistent with the meanings and effects.

Thanks, it was a first pass.

Camarilla. 2 votes (titled). While ready, Elise can burn a blood to give another vampire +1 stealth. She can play cards requiring sects or titles as if she had them. She cannot block. +1 Bleed. Infernal.

Looks good.

Remember that consistent numeric effects like Bleed and Strength are always at the end, as is Infernal and other keywords. Votes, however, are always at the beginning of the text. I'm pretty sure you want to have the 'while ready' clause for the effect just to make sure it's roughly balanced.

Seems reasonable.

I wonder if we're allowed to use only symbols for clans in text? That would greatly reduce the needed space for cards: and instead of Toreador and Toreador Antitribu, for example.

Thought so as well. I am okay with removing the blocking restriction for Toreador or Toreador Antitribu. It is the least important part of the card, only included for thematic reasons.

She's basically a G5 Montano for with Obfuscate and without Baltimore Purge shenanigans.

She has no bounce, she can't block, she is Infernal and she doesn't have Power Structure to push votes.

It should be play tested though. I'm just saying that we should be very careful when designing cards with constant abilities and votes for G5.

G3 is out of the question because of Montano.

Vote push into group 3 is right out in my opinion. G5 on the other hand is a bit all over the place.

That leaves us with G1, where I'd gladly accept new vampires for extra boosts. Elise would fit right in, I think, with G2 Baali and Followers of Set just next to her, and G1 Toreador and Ventrue right there (who'd probably need a bit more love somehow [no, not looking at you, Anson]). But if VEKN indeed does refrain from taking in new G1 vampires, G5 might be the right one for you.

G1 is bit more thorny than G5 in my opinion because of the power house Presence vampires.

She IS interesting, I'll give you that. She also gives Daughters of Cacophony a new angle, even if Scout has been there to address that for some time now.

Scout is not good enough by herself, I tried. She gets completely outclassed.

Her power level should be looked at very, very carefully in play testing if she'd even get that far.

It is very clear what she does well and what she does not do. The biggest point to make is... that she basically does very little by herself. She needs other minions to be effective.

Yeah, the comparison to Montano isn't probably the clearest... Her ability is what makes her so strong as a support vampire, not a solo (like Montano). But it's such a strong ability. Montano isn't a voter as such, it's just an added extra curve (and Presence with Melpomine trumps all other vote pushes so hard we can't even start that discussion ), so... Well, anyways, all I'm saying is that the added stealth at will is really, really strong.

The G1 power houses are strong, but when compared to G5 Justicars for example are more or less equal. She would be in the same group with AAA Toreador, yes, but so would she be in the same group with plenty of less used guys as well, who might need the love.

But I can see your reasoning with the groups. It could be debated either way. For sure I don't have a comprehensive or 'right' answer for that question.

She has plenty of useful and very powerful abilities, and as such promotes worry and discussion. That's mostly a good thing. It means that she might find room in decks, and sparks an interest.

On another note, I've yet to build a Scout deck, but I've seen her work wonders in some aggressive damage decks. She's by no means a bad vampire. But that's another topic, and not really related to Elise as such.

I don't know if I have any additional feedback though. The disciplines and the whole set seems really good, and really interesting, and as I've said before, your enthusiasm for background checks and lore is excellent. All I'd consider is her group (but G5 is probably the best bet if you're not willing to go G6 or we can't go G1), and monitor her power level in play testing.

Kraus wrote:

Yeah, the comparison to Montano isn't probably the clearest... Her ability is what makes her so strong as a support vampire, not a solo (like Montano). But it's such a strong ability. Montano isn't a voter as such, it's just an added extra curve (and Presence with Melpomine trumps all other vote pushes so hard we can't even start that discussion ), so... Well, anyways, all I'm saying is that the added stealth at will is really, really strong.

I agree and have been looking at her. I'm going to be doing my second pass of the crypt submissions soon. That will clean up text, verify balance for cost using the vampire creation rules, and offer some additional thoughts.

The G1 power houses are strong, but when compared to G5 Justicars for example are more or less equal. She would be in the same group with AAA Toreador, yes, but so would she be in the same group with plenty of less used guys as well, who might need the love.

I totally understand what you are saying. If she goes into G1, my fear is that she will only ever be played with AAA. I could be wrong, as she will be strong anywhere she is placed. My thought process is that in Group 5 she has more potential to be good for multiple decks. She works for Big Vote, Action based Serpentus or Daimonion, fits into Presence Bleed, and her original ability was +1 stealth to a minion so she could work with Allies as well. I am starting to think she may be too strong. Testing her right now.

She has plenty of useful and very powerful abilities, and as such promotes worry and discussion. That's mostly a good thing. It means that she might find room in decks, and sparks an interest.

She has "wow" potential which is both good and bad.

On another note, I've yet to build a Scout deck, but I've seen her work wonders in some aggressive damage decks. She's by no means a bad vampire. But that's another topic, and not really related to Elise as such.

She isn't bad at all, but you can't build a crypt with Scout alone and expect to be successful. You only have 3 other Daughters of Cacophony that she can be played with and none of them have votes or have an ability to help with votes. Hillanvale (6 Cap) doesn't even have Presence. Harlan Graves(4 Cap) and Janet Langer (3 Cap) have only have inferior Presence.

I don't know if I have any additional feedback though. The disciplines and the whole set seems really good, and really interesting, and as I've said before, your enthusiasm for background checks and lore is excellent.

Thanks, I have played vampire table top, LARPs (fan based and official), CCGs, card/board games and video games for two decades at this point. Some of my friends wrote stories and developed for White Wolf so the lore just rubs off. In fact, if you are interested in lore I could share some stories.

I still have one more crypt card to submit and his mechanic is interesting. I have been playing around with it for weeks (maybe a month now).

All I'd consider is her group (but G5 is probably the best bet if you're not willing to go G6 or we can't go G1), and monitor her power level in play testing.

So G6 could work, but it would make her considerably weaker. Specifically it cuts out some Inner Circle options, Nakhthorheb/Neferu/Cagliostro, The Grand Copht or Cybele, the Brujah Antitribu (Presence/Obfuscate) voting block, a combo with Nehemiah and would mean she loses access to the group 4 Daughters, notably: Sayshila/Evil Jensen/Antoinette Dubois.