lightbulb Pressing the Flesh (suggestion)POT

22 Oct 2018 16:15 - 22 Oct 2018 16:42 #91374 by Mauro Ramos
Based on the principle that the "POTENCE" discipline is very outdated in the game, I thought of some ideas .

Combat Cards

Name: Pressing the flesh
Cost: 1
DIcipline: Potence
pot: Press, Only used to continue combat
POT: Only useable when both combatants are still ready and combat would end and the current round occurred in close range. Burn 1 blood to start a new round instead.

Name: Troile's Fist
Cost: 1 our 2?
Dicipline: Potence
Only usable after the first round.
pot: Strike: Make a hand strike +2, and the opossing minion can't be dodge this strike.
POT: Strike: As above but Make a hand strike with +5


Name: Shredding the spine
Cost: 1
Dicipline: Potence
Grapple. Only usable in close range before the chosen strikes.
Pot:The opposing minion takes 1 environmental damage each round of combat during normal strike resolution at close range.
[POT] As above, but for 2 environmental damage.


Action Cards:

Solving a Problem
Dicipline: Potence
Cost: 0
[D} action
Pot: Enter in combat with a minion controlled by the prey or predator, with optional maneuver
POT: As above, but with optional press (only usable to continue a combat)



Mauro Ramos
First Sword of leopoldo Society in fortaleza
Ceara, Brazil
Last edit: 22 Oct 2018 16:42 by Mauro Ramos.
The following user(s) said Thank You: lionel

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22 Oct 2018 21:05 #91390 by Ankha
There's already a card with a similar name: "Pressing Fless" in Thanatosis.

Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

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23 Oct 2018 08:47 - 23 Oct 2018 08:49 #91415 by jamesatzephyr

Mauro Ramos wrote: Based on the principle that the "POTENCE" discipline is very outdated in the game, I thought of some ideas .


Your overall goal seems to be to reduce the need for support from other disciplines (e.g. maneuvers from Celerity or Obfuscate). That doesn't really make Potence less outdated, it mostly just makes weenies potentially better, assuming cards are worth playing.

Mauro Ramos wrote: Name: Pressing the flesh
Cost: 1
DIcipline: Potence
pot: Press, Only used to continue combat
POT: Only useable when both combatants are still ready and combat would end and the current round occurred in close range. Burn 1 blood to start a new round instead.


It's not immediately obvious why this would be a significantly better pick than Immortal Grapple - stay at close range, kill someone on the first round. No need to extend combat, because they're already dead. And you're using two blood to extend combat, which is expensive.

One answer might be that you want to play it against decks that solidly go to range in the first round, so you press at inferior. A potential problem with that is that decks that can solidly go to range are likely to hit you with something - perhaps it's a Celeritous gun deck, perhaps it's a Tzimisce deck tossing out Carrion Crows and some Breaths, perhaps it's a Thaumauturgy deck hitting you with occasional Flames of the Netherworld, those sorts of things. (Guns would be my big worry.) There's a decent chance you end up mangled in torpor, and you've lost blood in the first round so the 1 blood cost for the Press is possibly significant. To combat that, a few options occur:

- You can, of course, defend against such hit-back, but not usually using Potence - and if you're already playing other disciplines, they may be providing the toys you want anyway.
- You can maneuver back to close range (or use a set range) by whatever means, which makes a bunch of the card somewhat redundant.
- You can hit them at range with Potence e.g. Thrown Gate, Sewer Lid, so you at least do some damage, and possibly prevent an additional strike or two by torporising them. The problem with this is that most of those cards are sub-optimal for Potence as a serious offensive discipline, in that they're weaker or more restricted than alternatives, and can't be played under Immortal Grapple, and you leave yourself open to S:CE if you're planning to make serious use of them. The superior of the card also suggests you're thinking about staying at close range, so it's not suggesting that much synergy to go this route.

Mauro Ramos wrote: Name: Troile's Fist
Cost: 1 our 2?
Dicipline: Potence
Only usable after the first round.
pot: Strike: Make a hand strike +2, and the opossing minion can't be dodge this strike.
POT: Strike: As above but Make a hand strike with +5


Requiring you to go to the second round is almost always a bad move. You jam your hand on the first round. If you torporise them on the first round anyway, it's wasted. You expose yourself to the opportunity for more damage against you in the second round. Is Torn Signpost + IG + Disarm just better?

Mauro Ramos wrote: Name: Shredding the spine
Cost: 1
Dicipline: Potence
Grapple. Only usable in close range before the chosen strikes.
Pot:The opposing minion takes 1 environmental damage each round of combat during normal strike resolution at close range.
[POT] As above, but for 2 environmental damage.


It's not clear why me shredding your spine with my superior strength (i.e. the theme of Potence) is environmental damage?

As worded, this also stacks. Yes, it has a cost, but the timing of play means you likely know if you can afford it or not.

Mauro Ramos wrote: Solving a Problem
Dicipline: Potence
Cost: 0
[D} action
Pot: Enter in combat with a minion controlled by the prey or predator, with optional maneuver
POT: As above, but with optional press (only usable to continue a combat)


For me, an example of making weenie mono-Potence better. It can already shred decks - it's not clear why it needs a largely better rush action than Bum's Rush (no DNR clause), to make it better at being more aggressive. While that might be a good decision for a deckbuilder to include, it feels like the wrong direction from a game design point of view.
Last edit: 23 Oct 2018 08:49 by jamesatzephyr.

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23 Oct 2018 12:59 #91424 by Klaital
Ok lets go over these....

Pressing the Flesh: Ummm, why would I ever use this? It gets completely outclassed by Immmortal Grapple and EVEN Mighty Grapple, which does basically same for no blood cost, and adds a bit of extra damage too at superior.

Troile's fist: Cauldron of Blood does the exact same thing, at no blood cost, and never sees play. Nuff said.

Shredding the Spine: This is basically enviromental Fists of Death, and also rather unthematic for potence, as potence is all about you hitting them hard, enviromental damage doesn't really fit the portfolio.

Solving a Problem: So you want to give Sense Death to potence? I am not sure if that is good idea, now if you want to give a rush card for potence, maybe make it give +strength as the bonus effect? That sounds more fitting.

Overall, what Potence needs, imo, is not more combat cards, but more stuff they can do outside of combat.

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24 Oct 2018 01:53 - 24 Oct 2018 01:54 #91449 by Boris The Blade

Ankha wrote: There's already a card with a similar name: "Pressing Fless" in Thanatosis.

I suggest "Smoothie" as an alternative name.

Flavor text:
"Does anyone have a straw?"
:P

jamesatzephyr wrote: Your overall goal seems to be to reduce the need for support from other disciplines (e.g. maneuvers from Celerity or Obfuscate). That doesn't really make Potence less outdated, it mostly just makes weenies potentially better, assuming cards are worth playing.

That is precisely the mindset that made :pot: suck. It is not just weenies who would benefit from being able to splash some :pot:, it is the clans that currently make do with only 2 disciplines (Giovanni, Lasombra), clans that happen to have decent :pot: crypts (e.g. !Malk),... Even the Nosferatu are better off sticking to :obf::ani: only if they do not add extra :for:.

We have 25 years of experience telling us that multi-discipline combat is niche at best because heavy combat is the hardest strategy to pull off. Designing :pot: with that goal in mind will only lead to more wallpaper.

That being said, the cards proposed by the OP are pretty much all awful.
Last edit: 24 Oct 2018 01:54 by Boris The Blade.

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24 Oct 2018 05:54 #91450 by LivesByProxy
Pressing The Flesh: I like it as an alternative to Immortal Grapple. My problem would be that it is basically Telepathic Tracking only requiring Potence instead of Auspex. Immortal Grapple, Psyche!, and Telepathic Tracking all serve to counter S:CE, but they all do it in a different way. Your Pressing The Flesh should act as an interesting alternative to IG, Psyche!, and TT. However, in defense of your idea, I don't think it is worse that IG. It would enable damaging strikes that aren't hand-strikes, including weapon strikes, which would be cool.

Troile's Fist: I have to agree with James: I think TSP + IG + Disarm is just better. Short-chain combat that's less likely to jam, and gets the job done. Now, I like the idea of long-chain combat, but unless we get a card that says, "the opposing minion's controller burns 1 pool for each round of combat that occurs" I don't see it being worthwhile.

Shredding The Spine: I'll answer why this is environmental damage to all those asking about the flavor. It's because having you're taking damage from a source other than the vampire. If I break your [bones] for example, you take the initial damage from my act. If you then try to move, you're going to feel more pain (take more damage.)

Solving A Problem: I'm not sure how to feel about this. it doesn't do enough to make it different from all the other rush cards (which are mostly too similar for my liking.) A Potence rush card could be cool though.

=====

When I suggested some Potence cards a few months ago, I stressed that Potence can / should make use of all the optional presses they get. For example, here's how I would do an alternative to IG:

You Can Run!
Combat :combat:
Only usable before range is determined.
:pot: If combat would end, this vampire may spend 2 presses to continue combat and get +1 strength.
:POT: As above, and this vampire gets an optional press this round, only usable to continue combat.
"But you can't hide!"

So all those optional presses your vampire accumulates via card effects and special abilities don't go to waste.

:gang: :CEL: :FOR: :PRO: :cap6: Gangrel. Noddist. Camarilla. Once each turn, LivesByProxy may burn 1 blood to lose Protean :PRO: until the end of the turn and gain your choice of superior Auspex :AUS:, Obfuscate :OBF:, or Potence :POT: for the current action.

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