"...why proxies are not going to be allowed..."

Because it is my strong belief (and I'm not alone with it, as far as I know) that allowing proxies will hurt the game - I've stated that in my previous post. And I happen to love this game. So going by your logic I can say that proxies will actually hurt someone - namely myself and people who think alike.

dude_PL wrote:

Because it is my strong belief (and I'm not alone with it, as far as I know) that allowing proxies will hurt the game - I've stated that in my previous post. And I happen to love this game. So going by your logic I can say that proxies will actually hurt someone - namely myself and people who think alike.

I believe that it might, on some deep intangible level, hurt you but I haven't seen any convincing arguments supporting the notion that proxies would hurt the game more then they would benefit it. Forgive my insolence but at this point I'm starting to think that most arguments against proxies are motivated by some undefined emotional reasons rather than rational thinking. If that were the case, it would be not be easily justified to impose those reasons on others.

The part where netdecking will become (even more) the standard and tournaments will lose the (little) variety they have is actually a pretty strong argument against proxies.

I haven't heard any good argument in favor of proxies either.

The only thing I have heard is Johannes, chairman of the VEKN, saying that the VEKN will only allow cards in their original print form and thus would not allow proxies.

Their main reason is that a game that uses proxies is less attractive for a potential new publisher. Which is probably the best argument you're ever going to get.

Izaak wrote:

The part where netdecking will become (even more) the standard and tournaments will lose the (little) variety they have is actually a pretty strong argument against proxies.

It's also an argument in favor of Mr. Suitcase. To me that's repugnant.

I haven't heard any good argument in favor of proxies either.

The only thing I have heard is Johannes, chairman of the VEKN, saying that the VEKN will only allow cards in their original print form and thus would not allow proxies.

Their main reason is that a game that uses proxies is less attractive for a potential new publisher. Which is probably the best argument you're ever going to get.

I think we've engaged about this before. I'll politely agree to disagree instead of going over the same points again.

Suoli wrote:

dude_PL wrote:

Because it is my strong belief (and I'm not alone with it, as far as I know) that allowing proxies will hurt the game - I've stated that in my previous post. And I happen to love this game. So going by your logic I can say that proxies will actually hurt someone - namely myself and people who think alike.

I believe that it might, on some deep intangible level, hurt you but I haven't seen any convincing arguments supporting the notion that proxies would hurt the game more then they would benefit it. Forgive my insolence but at this point I'm starting to think that most arguments against proxies are motivated by some undefined emotional reasons rather than rational thinking. If that were the case, it would be not be easily justified to impose those reasons on others.

If you don't find any of the arguments I've given rational then I rest my case. I'm not trying to convince you (or anyone for the matter), I'm stating my opinion - some people like it, some don't. Izaak just pointed out one of my arguments and added the one Johannes made. There were others as well. Just trust me when I say that it's not an "intanglible level" or "unidentified emotional reasons". If that marks me as irrational, I just have to live with that.

On a side note, let's imagine for a moment that proxies are allowed. What would you want to see proxied? Everything? Like...I don't own 8 summon history, but screw collecting / trading, I'll just use my printer, problem solved? Or maybe a selected bunch? Like villeins, deep songs, eyes of argus, dreams, DI, parity shift...what else? Oh, by the way - aren't those exactly the same cards that are currently being discussed over and over again as broken / unbalanced / needing a fix? (Please note that the power level of those cards and my opinion about it is irrelevant for this discussion and is just given as an example).

The whole reason behind us even discussing proxies is because WW shot us in the foot with the last few expansions, printing insanely powerful cards in large sets and effectively creating commons which value exceeds rares by a huge margin. Because of exactly the same reason I believe that VEKN has an "unwritten obligation" to attempt to fix it - by delivering alternatives or erratas to existing cards (removing the MT hosing part on Villein as an example).

And finally, since we're discussing allowing proxies as a concept without bringing any details (again - which cards to proxy?) - I'd like to see the exact list of cards you want to proxy (by "you" I mean all the PRO-proxy people) and the reasoning behind it. Hell, go forth and convince me, maybe I'll change my mind - honestly, I love being proven wrong, we learn from our mistakes and the conclusions we draw from them after all. As things stand now, I remain strongly unconvinced.

dude_PL wrote:

If you don't find any of the arguments I've given rational then I rest my case. I'm not trying to convince you (or anyone for the matter), I'm stating my opinion - some people like it, some don't. Izaak just pointed out one of my arguments and added the one Johannes made. There were others as well. Just trust me when I say that it's not an "intanglible level" or "unidentified emotional reasons". If that marks me as irrational, I just have to live with that.

Do you see why it would be unjustified to restrict the actions and behavior of others based not on moral grounds (it's a heavy word but I can't think of a better one) but solely because of your personal preference, even when those actions don't directly affect you?

On a side note, let's imagine for a moment that proxies are allowed. What would you want to see proxied? Everything? Like...I don't own 8 summon history, but screw collecting / trading, I'll just use my printer, problem solved? Or maybe a selected bunch? Like villeins, deep songs, eyes of argus, dreams, DI, parity shift...what else? Oh, by the way - aren't those exactly the same cards that are currently being discussed over and over again as broken / unbalanced / needing a fix? (Please note that the power level of those cards and my opinion about it is irrelevant for this discussion and is just given as an example).

I don't enjoy using any kind of proxies. I feel a cringe when other people use proxies for commons. But that's my problem, not theirs. If it was up to me, I would allow anything to be proxied.