Imbuided - Dead or Alive?

10 Mar 2018 23:12 #85669 by Kushiel

Replied by Kushiel on topic Imbuided - Dead or Alive?

Blooded wrote:
The ruling that they are allies that are not affected by their cost if you cast an anti ally vote? sheesh I understand why it is that why, but it is frustrating.

Fair, but seriously? Isn't Kindred Segregation the only card that this affects? One card that's already highly cornercase.

Blooded wrote:
Taste of vitae is a great example.
Almost all contracts.
Many rush cards.

Bloodartist wrote:
There is also this little detail that Imbued are not vampires. There is a HUGE number of cards that interact with or affect only vampires. Therefore huge number of cards (Im referring to cards that Imbued's opponents would like to play) are simply unusable vs Imbued.

All the while Imbued doing several things that vampires do (like bleed, block, etc)

These are complaints about all allies, not imbued.

Blooded wrote:
"Pillow Facing" is another major gripe.... They get free conviction, and can can do 2 dfamage each if i end them? wtf?????????????????

One damage. And doing so strips the imbued of their most important resource, the one which it's very difficult for them to replenish any more rapidly than via slow accrual, and with the worst-case scenario result that your vampire will end up in torpor. Compared with diablerie and blood hunts, pillowfacing is way less harsh on the acting vampire.

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Kushiel
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11 Mar 2018 17:17 #85674 by LivesByProxy

Replied by LivesByProxy on topic Imbuided - Dead or Alive?

Kushiel wrote:

Blooded wrote:
Taste of vitae is a great example.
Almost all contracts.
Many rush cards.

Bloodartist wrote:
There is also this little detail that Imbued are not vampires. There is a HUGE number of cards that interact with or affect only vampires. Therefore huge number of cards (Im referring to cards that Imbued's opponents would like to play) are simply unusable vs Imbued.

All the while Imbued doing several things that vampires do (like bleed, block, etc)

These are complaints about all allies, not imbued.

But allies are generally supplements to existing clans and can utilize disciplines in a lot cases. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Imbued, while they can be played or mixed with Vampires in the Crypt, are basically only played with other Imbued, no? And them requiring and having Convictions and their Virtues makes blending Vampire and Imbued Library cards together undesirable, as you're dividing your strategy rather than having a cohesive one, no?

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LivesByProxy
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11 Mar 2018 18:13 - 11 Mar 2018 18:14 #85675 by Ankha

Replied by Ankha on topic Imbuided - Dead or Alive?

LivesByProxy and Bloodartist got what I meant.

A brute search of "a vampire" returns 607 occurrences in library cards, and "a minion" returns 185 occurrences. VTES is a game of vampires, and cards are mostly designed so. By having a crypt composed of allies only, an Imbued deck substracts itself to those cards, that is a great part of the game (thus the recurring feeling of not playing to the same game)

Considering that:
1/ detrimental cards are played by other players
2/ beneficial cards are played by yourself

Then
1/ The Imbued deck avoids a lot of detrimental cards played by other players.
2/ The Imbued deck doesn't have access to all the beneficial cards, but can use only those that are Imbued-compatible (no Blood Doll, but Liquidation for instance).

The advantages outshine the disadvantages.

Typical allies decks are not the same since they rely on vampires to bring out allies. Imbued decks don't have to.

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Last edit: 11 Mar 2018 18:14 by Ankha.

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12 Mar 2018 08:27 #85681 by Kushiel

Replied by Kushiel on topic Imbuided - Dead or Alive?

So, in summary, the same unconvincing arguments from 2006.

Ankha wrote:
A brute search of "a vampire" returns 607 occurrences in library cards, and "a minion" returns 185 occurrences.

Not a useful number, since that will include cards that aren't affected by the presence of an imbued deck at the table (the Govern family, the Blood Doll family, etc) and cards whose power is increased against imbued as a result of the "vampire" text (Ancient Influence, Smiling Jack, etc).

But please don't waste time on a more thorough search for my sake - I was only wondering if there was more convincing evidence to support the "different game tho!" arguments in the last decade, and I'm not seeing anything new here.

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12 Mar 2018 10:41 - 12 Mar 2018 10:49 #85684 by Bloodartist

Replied by Bloodartist on topic Imbuided - Dead or Alive?

Kushiel wrote:
These are complaints about all allies, not imbued.

In order to have allies, you're supposed to have a vampire that recruits them. Interacting with said recruiter makes all the difference for ally decks. This is not the case with Imbued.

Kushiel wrote:
But please don't waste time on a more thorough search for my sake - I was only wondering if there was more convincing evidence to support the "different game tho!" arguments in the last decade, and I'm not seeing anything new here.

You can choose to ignore arguments. Then we can ignore yours.
Its not like constructive discussion is a thing on these forums.

A heretic is a man who sees with his own eyes.
—Gotthold Ephraim Lessing

Last edit: 12 Mar 2018 10:49 by Bloodartist.

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12 Mar 2018 11:24 #85685 by elotar

Replied by elotar on topic Imbuided - Dead or Alive?

Kushiel wrote:
So, in summary, the same unconvincing arguments from 2006.

Nothing really changed from 2006 - imbueds was crappy addition to the game than as they are now. Main argument, for me, is people leaving the game because of them (see "VtES history" topic). It may not be convincing, but I think people are missing the point here - goal is not to convince anybody, goal is to keep game from dying.

By now we, as a minor part of the community who cares not only about playing, are doing kind of a bad job in this regard. Maybe the overbloat of crapy mechanics is not a problem, and obviously it's not the only one, but then do you have alternative convincing theory what is and what we have to do about it?

Just please, do not tell me "back in print" cool story. The game is actually in print now - we got both one "real" printed expansion as well as allowed proxies nearly everywhere, but speed of shrinking of players base is the most rapid in history.