file How to make Potence better?

04 Aug 2018 19:38 #89645 by LivesByProxy
But how to make Potence better?

I've said it before and I'll say it again: I think part of the problem is with the Discipline name. It would be better if the Discipline were called Ferocity. Potence is being physically strong and hitting hard. Ferocity is exhibiting or behaving with extreme fierceness, and unrestrained violence and brutality. One of these is for super hero shenanigans, the other is for vampires fighting to the death. I think the word Potence limits conception of what the discipline could / should do, but Ferocity has a larger range of applicability. And a lot of Potence cards names are better suited to Ferocity as a name as well. There are also a couple of cards which could / should be Potence cards, but are not for [reasons]. Notorious Brutality, Uncontrollable Rage, and Taste of Vitae come to mind.

But to make Potence better I would start with four things (in no particular order):
1. Figure out how to make Potence burn pool in a way that seems unique to it.
2. Play with Frenzy mechanic and possibly Votes.
3. Apply Potence to cards with appropriate thematic names.
4. Have counters / interactions with S:CE and Dodges.

Seeing Red
Combat :combat:
:pot: Frenzy. This vampire gets +1 strength for the remainder of combat. Strikes to end combat have no effect, and this vampire gets an optional press, only usable to continue combat.
:POT: As above, but non-damaging strikes have no effect.


Thematically, this vampire's frenzy is so hell-bent on his target that his only thought is killing him. Mechanically, Potence wants a way to stay in combat. This card competes with Immortal Grapple to some extent, but I think it's different enough to warrant creation. Could maybe include Presence :pre: :PRE: since inducing frenzy has historically been tied to that Discipline.


Tooth & Nail
Combat :combat:
:pot: Frenzy. This vampire may use any of their presses to play strike cards during the Press step for the remainder of combat. (Strikes played during the Press step resolve as if it were the Strike step.)
:POT: As above, and this vampire gets an optional press this round.


Tooth & Nail is an English idiom meaning to fight with everything one has (similar to Pushing The Limit). Not entirely sure about this effect, but it is neat IMO.

Curb Stomp
Combat :combat:
Only usable at close range. Not usable on the first round of combat.
:pot: Strike: Deal 2 damage to the opposing vampire and send that vampire to torpor.
:POT: As above, but deal 3 damage.


Curb Stomp is a brutal move that would kill a human, but would only put a vampire to sleep (probably). So it gives Potence the ability to torpor opponent's vampires, of course. This is an effect Potence does not have to my knowledge.

Collateral Damage
Combat :combat:
Only usable if the opposing minion's Methuselah controls a location.
:pot: For each round of combat that occurs, the opposing minion's controller burns 1 pool or burns that location.
:POT: For each round of combat that occurs, the opposing minion's controller burns 1 pool or burns a location.


Hey, it is a way to deal pool damage in a form that seems thematic for Potence, no? Inspired by Brick Laying.

Breaking & Entering
Action Modifier :modifier:
:obf: :pot: +1 bleed if your prey controls a location. [limited]
:OBF: :POT: As above, and choose a location they control. That location's text box is considered blank until the end of their turn.


Surprised this name wasn't in use already. Seemed like the perfect card for Nosferatu. I like that it is conditional and interacts with other player's location cards. Also blanking text box seems strong and is an effect that's appeared in every FFG LCG to date, so why not VTES?

:gang: :CEL: :FOR: :PRO: :cap6: Gangrel. Noddist. Camarilla. Once each turn, LivesByProxy may burn 1 blood to lose Protean :PRO: until the end of the turn and gain your choice of Auspex :AUS:, Obfuscate :OBF:, or Potence :POT: for the current action.
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04 Aug 2018 19:54 #89648 by Kraus
Replied by Kraus on topic How to make Potence better?

I've said it before and I'll say it again: I think part of the problem is with the Discipline name. It would be better if the Discipline were called Ferocity.

First and foremost: unless V5 changes the discipline name and description, this will not happen. VtES is married to WoD, and at the moment V5. V5 even uses VtES discipline symbols, I heard.

In that sense, it will not make much sense to start with this premise.

Have you looked at how V5 portrays Potence? That would probably give the most direction into what Potence "should" be about in the future.

"Oh, to the Hades with the manners! He's a complete bastard, and calling him that insults bastards everywhere!"
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05 Aug 2018 08:21 #89654 by Lönkka
Replied by Lönkka on topic How to make Potence better?
Few cards that kinda trumped Potence were:

-Weighted Walking Stick (a solid effort for making melee weapons better)

-Target -cards, especially Target Vitals. Why play Potence when you can get amazing +2 for anyone?

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05 Aug 2018 09:00 - 05 Aug 2018 09:07 #89655 by Kraus
Replied by Kraus on topic How to make Potence better?

Lönkka wrote: -Target -cards, especially Target Vitals. Why play Potence when you can get amazing +2 for anyone?

I really try my best to not be salty, like every other month, but for the life of me I still cannot understand why T:V has that extra clause of the opponent not being able to use presses. Wasn't that extra damage enough? Wasn't it?

//vent

Sry about that. Move on. I'm alright now. I'm alright.

Some of your ideas, in game mechanics and flavor, are actually kinda cool. I like Curb Stomp compared to Disarm. Potence already has interaction with Locations, and I wouldn't mind seeing more.

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Last edit: 05 Aug 2018 09:07 by Kraus.

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05 Aug 2018 11:28 #89660 by jamesatzephyr

LivesByProxy wrote: Collateral Damage
Combat :combat:
Only usable if the opposing minion's Methuselah controls a location.
:pot: For each round of combat that occurs, the opposing minion's controller burns 1 pool or burns that location.
:POT: For each round of combat that occurs, the opposing minion's controller burns 1 pool or burns a location.


This is problematic with any deck that can access Undead Persistence easily (which isn't really very hard). Literally one combat can oust that Methuselah if they can't end combat or trump your combat (e.g. burning you outright).

LivesByProxy wrote: Hey, it is a way to deal pool damage in a form that seems thematic for Potence, no?


Me being able to punch you really hard in the face causes The Parthenon, Ankara Citadel, a newspaper in London, and a Powerbase in Madrid to blow up in one combat, and I have to spend my influence to suppress that? That's like the exact opposite of thematic. It is in no way in theme for Potence. The theme of Potence does not include exploding buildings that are thousands and thousands of miles apart. from each other.

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05 Aug 2018 14:16 - 05 Aug 2018 15:32 #89662 by Boris The Blade
There is no need for philosophical debates. There is no need for new effects that take a wall of text. Just take what the discipline currently does, and make it match the current power level. What does Potence do? Big punches, and break stuff. Why is it not working currently?

1) Survival. This is the same core problem as melee weapons. Close combat gets hit back, needs Taste to survive, and that makes it unsuitable to light combat because the number of cards required explodes. We need ways to combine attack/defense in fewer cards to make it work.

Thrust
Combat
:pot: Strike: Hand or melee weapon at +1 stength.
:POT: As above, and this vampire gains 1 blood after damage resolution if this strike successfully inflicted damage.
Illustration: a vampire uppercuts his opponent off the floor. His arm went through the abdomen and the bloodied hand is visible through he back.

2) Maneuvers. Someone decided 20 ago that Potence should not be able to maneuver, but that is not a reasonable position in a meta where most other combat happens at long range. Slam kind of tried to break the taboo, but with a blood cost, superior requirement and hard limit to 1 per turn, it is way below the power curve.

Chain grab
Combat
:pot: Maneuver, only usable to go to close range.
:POT: Press, only usable to continue combat, or as above with an optional press, only usable to continue combat.
Illustration: a vampire tries to run away but it stopped at the neck or ankle by a heavy chain. The vampire who threw the chain pulls it back.

3) Break stuff. This one is simple: the existing cards suck.

Breaking and entering
Action
:pot: (D) Bleed at +1 bleed.
:POT: +1 stealth (D) action. Burn a location or equipment.
Illustration: a vampire walks through a crumbling hole on a wall.

Rock smash
Combat
:pot: Strike: destroy weapon with first strike.
:POT: As above, but usable at long range.
Last edit: 05 Aug 2018 15:32 by Boris The Blade.
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