lightbulb New keyword: "Defeated" (if opposing minion isn't ready...)

27 Sep 2019 10:58 #97160 by TwoRazorReign

LivesByProxy wrote: @2RazorReign: I get what you're saying. I disagree with the idea that there are no keywords in VTES - for exactly the reason you mention, no less: that "keyword" should be used globally for all games (more or less), following the same definition - but if using "special terms" engenders more discussion and feedback, then I will do that.

But I do find it a bit silly. Like if Chevrolet (VTES) refused to use the word "automobile" because Ford (MTG) used it first, and so insisted on using the phrase "self-propelled trans-locator" or something...

I mean, I get using terms applicable to the game, but it seems... deliberately stubborn(?) to refuse to use the language of the industry / profession to which you (BC) belong.


It's not silly, it's practical. VTES prides itself on a game where players can use cards printed in 1994. Those cards printed in 1994 did not follow conventions that are used today, and there has been a carry over effect of these "primordial" conventions that persists to this day. Read some cards printed in Jyhad and you could pick out myriad different keyword "types" those cards used. for example "+1 stealth", "All Kindred," "Gun," "Press," "skill." You might call all of these keywords, but in Jyhad, they were conceptually terms unto themselves with different specific meanings. This convention persists nowadays because it's practical to do so. For example "ready minion" and "ready region," which you are trying to combine in one keyword called "defeated," and coincidentally are not included as special terms in the rulebook but are terms used in the game, work best as terms unto themselves as the game currently stands.

And that last part is important. What is silly is trying to force modern conventions onto a game that is not actively being overhauled. You are essentially suggesting that "ready minion" and "ready region" be changed on all cards to "defeated" and a new "keyword" added to the current rulebook that does not include keywords. Do you really think that's a great idea? In the context of a complete reboot to Jyhad 2.0, then yes, your suggestion of "defeated" and modern use of keywords would make sense. But in the current context, with VTES still the same game it was in 1994? "Keywords bad."

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27 Sep 2019 20:12 #97168 by LivesByProxy

You are essentially suggesting that "ready minion" and "ready region" be changed on all cards to "defeated"


No, it would really only apply to a handful of cards that care about beating up minions in combat: Shadow Boxing, Matasuntha, Path of Lilith, Frontal Assault, Monster, Tension In The Ranks, etc.

"Ready region" and "ready minion" would both still be used where appropriate / applicable. "Defeated" is proposed new special term for cards concerned about combat burning / torp'ing opposing minions.

:gang: :CEL: :FOR: :PRO: :cap6: Gangrel. Noddist. Camarilla. Once each turn, LivesByProxy may burn 1 blood to lose Protean :PRO: until the end of the turn and gain your choice of superior Auspex :AUS:, Obfuscate :OBF:, or Potence :POT: for the current action.

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01 Oct 2019 09:44 #97177 by Stéphane81

LivesByProxy wrote: @CrazyCatTim, @stephane81: I've only been playing for 2ish years, and not even as frequently as I would like.

I think you guys are wrong though. Keywords are like mnemonic devices and aid in the psychological process known as "chunking" - grouping data together in your memory for easy recall. And BC realizes this, which is why I'm guessing they introduced the word: "(Limited.)" on bleed modifiers.


Limited and Bleed do not have secret meaning. What they do is obvious even if you're playing your first game. Deafeted means burn or in torpor for a minion ? If it's in Torpor, what do we do with an ally ?
Plus, if a keyword do not solve a problem, it is useless. And less words in the text-box is not an issue.

:vent: :PRE: :OBF: :aus: :dom: :tore:

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01 Oct 2019 10:57 - 01 Oct 2019 10:57 #97178 by TwoRazorReign

LivesByProxy wrote:

You are essentially suggesting that "ready minion" and "ready region" be changed on all cards to "defeated"


No, it would really only apply to a handful of cards that care about beating up minions in combat: Shadow Boxing, Matasuntha, Path of Lilith, Frontal Assault, Monster, Tension In The Ranks, etc.

"Ready region" and "ready minion" would both still be used where appropriate / applicable. "Defeated" is proposed new special term for cards concerned about combat burning / torp'ing opposing minions.


So, some cards will say "defeated," which means ""if the opposing minion is not ready / leaves the ready region." Then we will have other cards, like Dual Form, that will not use defeated and instead use "leaves the ready region"? And what about cards like Hell for Leather? Should it say "If this minion is ready and the opposing minion is defeated"? Should there be new keyword "undefeated," meaning "if this minion is ready / is in the ready region?"

Again, "keywords bad". Especially for this particular game.
Last edit: 01 Oct 2019 10:57 by TwoRazorReign.

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01 Oct 2019 17:07 #97183 by LivesByProxy
@Stephane: ...weren't you one of the ones complaining about having to go through the rulebook in order to find what a term means? Which means... what Limited does is... is a secret. Because it's not written on the card. And it isnt obvious what Limited means. Hence you need the rulebook or a 25-year veteran player who has internalized / memorized the rules to explain it...

@2RazorReign: About Dual Form: it needs the specificity because corner case scenarios like Golconda.

Also, isnt Hell-For-Leather's text about "requires a ready anarch" a bit redundant? I didn't think minions going to torpor / being burned could play cards unless the card specifies otherwise.

:gang: :CEL: :FOR: :PRO: :cap6: Gangrel. Noddist. Camarilla. Once each turn, LivesByProxy may burn 1 blood to lose Protean :PRO: until the end of the turn and gain your choice of superior Auspex :AUS:, Obfuscate :OBF:, or Potence :POT: for the current action.

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01 Oct 2019 18:38 - 01 Oct 2019 18:39 #97189 by TwoRazorReign

LivesByProxy wrote: @2RazorReign: About Dual Form: it needs the specificity because corner case scenarios like Golconda.


Agreed. But my point is, these cards all use consistent wording. Introducing inconsistency in wording among different cards for the sake of incorporating keywords is a HUGE sin that should be avoided. Would you not agree?

Also, isnt Hell-For-Leather's text about "requires a ready anarch" a bit redundant? I didn't think minions going to torpor / being burned could play cards unless the card specifies otherwise.


I'm thinking the redundancy is deliberate. If you changed "this anarch" to "this vampire," people may misunderstand that the anarch requirement does not apply to the :obt: use of the card.
Last edit: 01 Oct 2019 18:39 by TwoRazorReign.

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