Disarm vs. Combat ends

Question- Vampire 1 strikes for 2 hand damage. Vampire 2 in combat plays combat ends. Can Vampire 1 play disarm? Put another way, has vampire 1 "successfully inflicted" more damage than vampire 2?

Nope since strike combat ends resolves first so the 2 damage is never dealt (unless the combat ends is done as an additional strike in which case yes)

www.vekn.net/index.php/complete-rules-reference

VI.C.2 for reference

Correct.

Thanks for the reply.

One related question. What if Vampire 1 in the same hypothehical used Outside the Hourglass to inflict 2 damage before range is determined. Vampire 2 played combat ends.

Can Vampire 1 play disarm based on the 2 damage inflicted using Outside the Hourglass?

Thanks in advance.

shornbuck1 wrote:

Thanks for the reply.

One related question. What if Vampire 1 in the same hypothehical used Outside the Hourglass to inflict 2 damage before range is determined. Vampire 2 played combat ends.

Can Vampire 1 play disarm based on the 2 damage inflicted using Outside the Hourglass?

Yes.
[LSJ 20100630]

Just to get it right:

If there are no other effects triggered in the "pre determine range step" and "Outside the Hourglass" is played on , then the damage from "Outside the Hourglass" is "close range damage", regardless to what happens later in the actual round of combat?

So I could play "Outside the Hourglass" (hopefully successfully) for 2 damage (at close range), maneuver to long, play a S:CE and finish up with "Disarm"?

Thanks in advance!

So Outside the Hourglass is not environmental damage???

How is this different to Carrion Crows then? Since both cards state that they deal/inflict damage on the opposing minion I can't see why I can Disarm after Outside the Hourglass but can't do the same (if combat is close) with Carrion Crows.

OR

If I play the following sequence...
Outside the Hourglass before range.
Majesty
Street Cred (since I did deal 2 damage at close and Majesty just shoves the combat to "end of round")

Street Cred
Type: Combat
Requires: Potence
Cost: 1 blood
Only usable at the end of a round of combat in which this vampire successfully inflicted more damage than the opposing minion.
[pot] Move 1 blood from the blood bank to a younger vampire in your uncontrolled region. A vampire can play only 1 Street Cred each turn.
[POT] As above, but move 2 blood.

Outside the Hourglass
Type: Combat
Requires: Temporis / Obfuscate
[obf] Strike: dodge.
[tem] Maneuver, or strike: dodge, with an optional maneuver.
[TEM] Only usable before range is determined. Inflict 2 damage on the opposing minion. A vampire can play only one Outside the Hourglass at superior each round.

Carrion Crows
Type: Combat
Requires: Animalism
Only usable before range is chosen.
[ani] The opposing minion takes 1R damage each round of combat during strike resolution. A vampire can play only one Carrion Crows each combat.
[ANI] As above, but for 2R damage.

Juggernaut1981 wrote:

So Outside the Hourglass is not environmental damage???

And it's never been. "Inflict 2 damage" is different from "The opposing minion takes 1R damage".

Juggernaut1981 wrote:

How is this different to Carrion Crows then?

Grammatically, the actor is the vampire inflicting damage, on OtH. Consequently, the vampire is inflicting damage.

Juggernaut1981 wrote:

Since both cards state that they deal/inflict damage on the opposing minion I can't see why I can Disarm after Outside the Hourglass but can't do the same (if combat is close) with Carrion Crows.

Carrio Crows doesn't read "Deal X damage" or "Inflict X damage". It reads "The opposing minion takes XR damage", with no precision on the source. Thus, it is environmental.

Juggernaut1981 wrote:

If I play the following sequence...
Outside the Hourglass before range.
Majesty
Street Cred (since I did deal 2 damage at close and Majesty just shoves the combat to "end of round")

Valid.

So we can have "close range" before the "Determine Range Step" has completed, but calling 10,000 birds to attack your enemy on your behalf in not caused by the opposing minion, even though the opposing minion had to play a card to make it happen???

Honestly, other than "LSJ said so", I am yet to see a good argument for why "Subject takes X damage" from a card played by the opposing minion.

From a more 'real world' perspective, why should there be a difference between me remote-controlling a gun and me just firing the same thing? Under VTES rulings, it would seem that the remote-controlled gun would be counted as caused by some mystery 3rd-person which doesn't exist... but me shooting the gun counts and damage from me. Without my usage of the remote control the damage is not done. Similarly, without playing the Carrion Crows the damage is not done.

I'm not saying that Environmental Damage should not exist, but that it should be clearly, both thematically and by explicit card text, not as a direct result of actions taken by a minion in combat.

e.g. Ghoul Retainer damage should be "damage not caused by a minion". Wolf Companion should be "damage not caused by a minion". Calling a swarm of birds to attack your opponent should be "caused by a minion", since it seems fairly clear that in a combat between two vampires that being swarmed by birds in the middle of the night would be the result of that other vampire you are currently fighting.