Wider View (or "Are out-of-game cards public knowledge?")

When using Wider View to move a crypt card to your uncontrolled region and then remove a crypt card in your uncontrolled region from the game, do you have to reveal what card you removed from game to the other players?

And to broaden the question: Is the content of the out-of-game card pile public knowledge (as the discard pile of another player), that is, can everybody look at anybody's out-of-game pile?

Name: Wider View
[HttB:C/PKia2]
Cardtype: Master
Cost: 1 pool
Master: trifle.
Put this card in play. You may use a transfer to move the top card from your crypt to your uncontrolled region and then remove a crypt card in your uncontrolled region from the game. You may use four transfers to burn this card and gain 2 pool.
Artist: Michael Gaydos

Be careful, Pascal: the answer to this question has enormous metaphysical implications.

extrala wrote:

When using Wider View to move a crypt card to your uncontrolled region and then remove a crypt card in your uncontrolled region from the game, do you have to reveal what card you removed from game to the other players?

No, because it doesn't tell you to do so.

extrala wrote:

And to broaden the question: Is the content of the out-of-game card pile public knowledge (as the discard pile of another player), that is, can everybody look at anybody's out-of-game pile?

Yes. [LSJ 20080314] [LSJ 20070512]

Wait, what? That seems contradictory. How can you say that you don't need to show people what crypt card you remove from the game, but that cards you remove from the game are public knowledge?

Are you saying that you don't have to announce specifically what cards you are removing, you just say, "I remove a card from the game and put it in my 'removed from game' pile?" And if they ask what card you removed, do you then have to tell them? This is a very semantic distinction.

The ashheap is non-private information (i.e. Players may request the information at any point). So identifying which cards have been removed can be done by observing their absence. LSJ has previously decided that rather than have players keep encyclopaedic knowledge of the contents of everyone's ash-heap so they can determine which cards were removed, you should tell a player who wants to know which cards have been removed by showing them the removed card.

The cards removed are not able to influence the current game state, so therefore knowing of them cannot influence the game state. And again, like the Ash-heap, their identity can be found by observing their absence so other players should reveal the identity of cards that are removed when asked.

This is a different situation to "I want to take an action to search my ash-heap for the Card X" where a specific card is searched for by name in advance of the completion of the action. In the case where you can take cards from your ash-heap and put them in your hand, you can again reductively determine the identity of the card, so rather than hide that information you must disclose it positively when asked. So you aren't required to say which card you intend to move out of the ash-heap but you are required to say which card was moved out of the ash-heap.

The Erciyes Fragments
Unique master. Put this card in play. Tap this card to move a library card from your prey`s ash heap to this card, face down. You may look at that card at any time. You may play the card from the Fragments as if playing it from your hand (requirements and cost, if any, apply as normal). When that card is burned, remove it from the game instead. Only 1 card can be on this card at a time. Any vampire with a capacity above 4 can steal the Fragments (and any card on it) for his or her controller as a action.


So. This cards move a card from a public area (ash heap), do not say I have to show anyone the card, and hides it (face down) in a secret area.

Can the others methuselahs have the right to know what card I chose or they will have to play a memory game?

If the former is true, I dont think I like this card anymore. Or the current rules definition of "public area". I think all effects that happens in a public area should also be public. This created a annoying problem in a tourneament I participated, and stalled the game in serveral minutes with four methsuleah trying to discuss and discover which card was taken.

That table was not fun. That table was not about VTES anymore for me (i was his predator), and becomes a tiresome memorizing annoying exercise.