Heidelberg and impulse

Non-existant user wrote:

IIRC B has a window for Heidelberg between actions, but it is one of those things that have no proper justification in the rules. It works as if there were 2 different impulses, one for actions and one for "fast effects" between actions.

There are not two different sorts of Impulse effects, and the sequencing rules are quite clear, if you read them.

[1.6.1.5]: Sequencing. If two or more players want to play a card or effect, the acting Methuselah plays first. At every stage, the acting player always has the opportunity to play the next card or effect. So after playing one effect, she may play another and another. Once she is finished, the opportunity passes to the defending Methuselah (in the cases of directed actions and combat), then to the rest of the Methuselahs in clockwise order from the acting Methuselah. Note that if any Methuselah uses a card or effect, the acting Methuselah again gets the opportunity to play the next effect.

So, there are two different things inferred here:
1. Actions are not "effects". Cards played DURING an action are effects, so during an action, the acting Methuselah always gets first opportunity to play cards as the actor and the reactor.

2. After an ACTION is completely resolved, it is "finished", and as stated in 1.6.1.5, once [the Methuselah] is finished [with her action], the opportunity -- i.e. the Impulse -- passes to the defending Methuselah (in the cases of directed actions and combat), then to the rest of the Methuselahs in clockwise order from the acting Methuselah.

jamesatzephyr wrote:

Suoli wrote:

It would then stand to reason that player B can't use Heidelberg during A's minion phase until A is done with actions or otherwise allows him to. Is this correct?

No.

Thanks for the quick answer and explanation.

KevinM wrote:

There are not two different sorts of Impulse effects, and the sequencing rules are quite clear, if you read them.

[1.6.1.5]: Sequencing. If two or more players want to play a card or effect, the acting Methuselah plays first. At every stage, the acting player always has the opportunity to play the next card or effect. So after playing one effect, she may play another and another. Once she is finished, the opportunity passes to the defending Methuselah (in the cases of directed actions and combat), then to the rest of the Methuselahs in clockwise order from the acting Methuselah. Note that if any Methuselah uses a card or effect, the acting Methuselah again gets the opportunity to play the next effect.

So, there are two different things inferred here:
1. Actions are not "effects". Cards played DURING an action are effects, so during an action, the acting Methuselah always gets first opportunity to play cards as the actor and the reactor.

Can you expand on your logic here? You say it's clear but, to me, it really isn't. Nothing in the sequencing rules directly or indirectly states that (announcing) actions are not effects and it seems far fetched to say that they are, at least based on the paragraph you quoted.

KevinM wrote:

1. Actions are not "effects".

I am not sure how you inferred that from the sequencing rule, but the sequencing rule applies to actions. That is the rule that governs how out-of-turn actions are played. Look at Enkil Cog:

Enkil wrote:

Requires a vampire of capacity 10 or more. Unique.
Only usable when this vampire successfully bleeds your prey (play after resolution). Put this card on this vampire. During any Methuselah's minion phase, this vampire may tap this card to attempt an action. This vampire has +1 bleed.

Nothing in its text tells you when exactly to take the action, it is the sequencing rule that tells you to wait until the acting player has performed all his actions. And that he can take another one after your Enkil Cog action if he wants to.

Non-existant user wrote:

IIRC B has a window for Heidelberg between actions, but it is one of those things that have no proper justification in the rules. It works as if there were 2 different impulses, one for actions and one for "fast effects" between actions.

KevinM wrote:

There are not two different sorts of Impulse effects, and the sequencing rules are quite clear, if you read them.

[1.6.1.5]: Sequencing. If two or more players want to play a card or effect, the acting Methuselah plays first. At every stage, the acting player always has the opportunity to play the next card or effect. So after playing one effect, she may play another and another. Once she is finished, the opportunity passes to the defending Methuselah (in the cases of directed actions and combat), then to the rest of the Methuselahs in clockwise order from the acting Methuselah. Note that if any Methuselah uses a card or effect, the acting Methuselah again gets the opportunity to play the next effect.

So, there are two different things inferred here:
1. Actions are not "effects". Cards played DURING an action are effects, so during an action, the acting Methuselah always gets first opportunity to play cards as the actor and the reactor.

2. After an ACTION is completely resolved, it is "finished", and as stated in 1.6.1.5, once [the Methuselah] is finished [with her action], the opportunity -- i.e. the Impulse -- passes to the defending Methuselah (in the cases of directed actions and combat), then to the rest of the Methuselahs in clockwise order from the acting Methuselah.

The word "impulse" is not yet in the online rulebook, so people can't search for it.

Pascal did post this change with respect to sequencing:

Impulse
The notion of "impulse" has been added to the Rulebook. The "impulse" represents the next opportunity to play a card or use an effect. It respects the Sequencing Rule. Only the player with the impulse can play a card or use an effect.

But my point is mainly somewhat in agreement with Boris the Blade. The "acting Methuselah" as per sequencing is not necessarily "the Methuselah whose turn it is". We've had this since Day 1 with Madness Network, and we all understand Enkil Cog to be usable only when the Methuselah whose turn it is "passes impulse for all their actions."

As this discussion reiterates, Heidelberg can be used by any Methuselah other than the one whose turn is it after that Methuselah "passes impulse for all their between action effects."

To me it makes sense to separate these two slightly different notions of impulse because one is based on whose turn it is, and the other is based on who is acting.

KevinM wrote:

2. After an ACTION is completely resolved, it is "finished", and as stated in 1.6.1.5, once [the Methuselah] is finished [with her action], the opportunity -- i.e. the Impulse -- passes to the defending Methuselah (in the cases of directed actions and combat), then to the rest of the Methuselahs in clockwise order from the acting Methuselah.

No. This interpretation would suggest that the first player to have the opportunity to use a "between actions" effect is the other, non-acting Methuselah(s). That's not true, as LSJ's outline I quoted earlier shows. As with every timing window (unless overridden by the Golden Rule of Cards), in the "between actions" timing window, the acting Methuselah goes first.