No Confidence

So, what does loosing the benefit of a title means in game terms?

Does the vampire target by 2 no confidence becomes untitled? (being able to become anarch via the default action, for instance)

Or does he remains a titled vampire, but looses his votes and can't play cards that require his title (like second tradition), but is still subject to being a titled vampire, with all the perks and disadvantages this entitles (can't become anarch via default action, can't block a vampire who is bleeding with propaganda, for instance).

No Confidence
Type: Action Modifier
Play after resolving a successful action that requires an anarch.
Put this card on a titled non-anarch vampire controlled by the target of the action (or by your predator or prey if the action is undirected). A vampire with two No Confidence cards loses the benefit of his or her title. Burn this card if this acting vampire leaves the ready region.


1) They have the title. So contesting can occur. They do not 'lose the title' (compare with Command of the Harpies)

2) They lose all of the positive advantages of the title: They cannot play cards requiring the title, they cannot cast the Title's votes (but can cast other votes they may gain).


Pascal: Would this mean on the Praxis/Crusade cards which give Capacity Bonuses to the minion, would these vanish too since they are benefits of that specific title card?

For example:
Praxis Seizure: Barcelona
Type: Political Action
Requires: camarilla
Requires a Camarilla vampire. Title.
If this referendum is successful, put this card on the acting vampire to represent the unique Camarilla title of Prince of Barcelona. This could lead to a contested title. If the prince is Tremere, his or her capacity increases by 1.

Juggernaut1981 wrote:

1) They have the title. So contesting can occur. They do not 'lose the title' (compare with Command of the Harpies)

No, the vampire is "effectively non-titled". [LSJ 20081207] A non-titled vampire cannot contest a title.

The difference from Command of the Harpies is that the title can come back, if the No Confidence cards are burned. Command of the Harpies is a permanent effect - it doesn't sit on the Prince saying "The vampire with this card is not a Prince", it just applies a one-off "Lose your title" effect (which could be "reversed" by calling a Praxis Seizure).



I can't find precedent on this, but in a tournament where the question came up and I didn't have a better answer, I would probably handle this the same way as a vampire with a clan- or sect-based title changing to an inappropriate clan or sect. Note that section 10 of the rules uses somewhat similar wording:

Rulebook, wrote:

A vampire must belong to the appropriate sect to receive a title. If a vampire with a title changes clans or sects to a clan or sect inappropriate for his title, he loses the benefit of the title until his clan or sect changes appropriately. If he receives a new title, or if his title is contested (see Contested Titles, sec. 4.2), he immediately yields the old title.

It could be read either way, and Pascal may come to a different conclusion, but I would probably read this as saying that as part of "losing the benefit" of a sect-based title, the immediate yielding is part of that. And so I'd probably apply the same in the No Confidence case.

However, since we have the ruling that the vampire is "effectively non-titled", there's no mechanism for them to contest the title - presumably either the title is out of play for the time being, or it gets immediately yielded. I'd go for the second option, myself.


(The other reason I would do this is simplicity. If we can go either way between handling this like an inert sect-or-clan-based title and creating a separate way of handling this one card, I'd rather re-use the existing system.)

Juggernaut1981 wrote:

2) They lose all of the positive advantages of the title: They cannot play cards requiring the title, they cannot cast the Title's votes (but can cast other votes they may gain).

Don't muddy the water with the word "positive" - in any given situation, the benefit might be dubious to you.

For example, not being able to go anarch might be considered not a benefit. But when you're effectively non-titled, you can go anarch.

Juggernaut1981 wrote:

Pascal: Would this mean on the Praxis/Crusade cards which give Capacity Bonuses to the minion, would these vanish too since they are benefits of that specific title card?

The vampire is effectively non-titled for the duration, so that would trigger:

www.vekn.net/index.php/general-rulings
Blood capacity gained by gaining a title will be lost if the title is lost. [TOM 19960210]