Piper vs Sudden Reversal

jhattara wrote:

C) Piper is played, Anarch and Ally declared, Sudden is played knowing full effects of the card

I would say C because you should declare all effects of the card as you play the card.

It's C, the same as you know which weapon is being concealed before you DI.

jamesatzephyr wrote:

It's C, the same as you know which weapon is being concealed before you DI.

Is that so? I never seen it played that way (which isn't an indicator about the correctness of play). Do you have a reference or some such thing? Thx!

extrala wrote:

Do you have a reference or some such thing? Thx!

The rulebook:

Rulebook, wrote:

The player completely declares the effect of the card when it is played.

If you haven't announced the effect, you haven't played the card. If you haven't played the card, you can't cancel it, because that happens when the card is played - which hasn't happened, if you haven't fully announced the effect.


Here's a similar situation with Jack of Both Sides:

[LSJ 20070420]

LSJ, wrote:

>> I have some questions regarding ordering the sequence of things that
>> occur when someone plays Jack of Both Sides.
>>
>> Say it is my turn, I tap one of my minions and announce to the table
>> (put the card down) that they are attempting the action "Jack of Both
>> Sides", at +2 stealth.
>> As far as I understand things, the first thing that happens is I
>> replace the card to go back to my hand size. Then we have the "as it
>> is being played" window, which would for example let someone else play
>> Direct Intervention.
>> Now I'm guessing what happens next is that I show (but not *play*,
>> i.e. keep in my hand and remain at my current hand size) an equipment
>> or retainer card to all other players and declare that this is the
>> card that Jack of Both Sides is targeting?
>
> Incorrect.
> Sequence of evenements is :
> - Announce wich minion plays which action card.
> - Announce the terms of the action card, if any (inferior / superior
> level, cards targetted for Sudario Refraction or Jack, ...)
> - You tap your minon when doing one of the 2 points above.
> - At that moment, any one could call ask for a check that the
> equipment / retainer you announced for your Jack is in your 6 card
> hand)
> - Wait for Direct Intervention.
> - Replace the action card.
> - Play any "As the action is announced" cards as you want.
Correct, except that tapping comes after DI (that is, if the action card is
DI'ed, the minion doesn't tap).

Note that this isn't always followed to the letter in practice:

[LSJ 20050121]

LSJ wrote:

> According to RTR2000 you cannot DI the weapon that comes out with
> concealed/disguised. What is the order of play then? Do you play the
> concealed, name the weapon in hand, and then replace concealed while
> awaiting the table's response?
Yes.

In practice, both are played and, if DI'ed, then the wepaon is retrieved.

Just as other little things are glossed over in routine play (and
rewound when the "oversight" becomes problematic).

The point is that technically, when you say "Arika Conceals out a Saturday Night Special" what you do is:

- play Concealed Weapon, without replacing it yet
- announce its effect (Saturday Night Special on Arika)
- wait for a cancellation
- when the card is not cancelled, replace the CW and move the SNS from your hand.

But in practice, you often see people play them both together and rewind appropriately.



Along similar lines, you also know (or are entitled to know) the following information before you play an appropriate cancellation card (Sudden, Wash, DI, whatever):

- how much blood someone is going to take before your Suddenly Reverse Minion Tap
- what card is being played with Charming Lobby, before you DI the Charming Lobby
- what "X" is, for cards that have a 'cost' of X, such as Lightning Reflexes or Hidden Strength
- what cards are being fetched from the ash heap with Whispers from the Dead

jamesatzephyr wrote:

extrala wrote:

Do you have a reference or some such thing? Thx!

The rulebook:

Rulebook, wrote:

The player completely declares the effect of the card when it is played.

If you haven't announced the effect, you haven't played the card. If you haven't played the card, you can't cancel it, because that happens when the card is played - which hasn't happened, if you haven't fully announced the effect.


Here's a similar situation with Jack of Both Sides:

[LSJ 20070420]

LSJ, wrote:

>> I have some questions regarding ordering the sequence of things that
>> occur when someone plays Jack of Both Sides.
>>
>> Say it is my turn, I tap one of my minions and announce to the table
>> (put the card down) that they are attempting the action "Jack of Both
>> Sides", at +2 stealth.
>> As far as I understand things, the first thing that happens is I
>> replace the card to go back to my hand size. Then we have the "as it
>> is being played" window, which would for example let someone else play
>> Direct Intervention.
>> Now I'm guessing what happens next is that I show (but not *play*,
>> i.e. keep in my hand and remain at my current hand size) an equipment
>> or retainer card to all other players and declare that this is the
>> card that Jack of Both Sides is targeting?
>
> Incorrect.
> Sequence of evenements is :
> - Announce wich minion plays which action card.
> - Announce the terms of the action card, if any (inferior / superior
> level, cards targetted for Sudario Refraction or Jack, ...)
> - You tap your minon when doing one of the 2 points above.
> - At that moment, any one could call ask for a check that the
> equipment / retainer you announced for your Jack is in your 6 card
> hand)
> - Wait for Direct Intervention.
> - Replace the action card.
> - Play any "As the action is announced" cards as you want.
Correct, except that tapping comes after DI (that is, if the action card is
DI'ed, the minion doesn't tap).

Note that this isn't always followed to the letter in practice:

[LSJ 20050121]

LSJ wrote:

> According to RTR2000 you cannot DI the weapon that comes out with
> concealed/disguised. What is the order of play then? Do you play the
> concealed, name the weapon in hand, and then replace concealed while
> awaiting the table's response?
Yes.

In practice, both are played and, if DI'ed, then the wepaon is retrieved.

Just as other little things are glossed over in routine play (and
rewound when the "oversight" becomes problematic).

The point is that technically, when you say "Arika Conceals out a Saturday Night Special" what you do is:

- play Concealed Weapon, without replacing it yet
- announce its effect (Saturday Night Special on Arika)
- wait for a cancellation
- when the card is not cancelled, replace the CW and move the SNS from your hand.

But in practice, you often see people play them both together and rewind appropriately.



Along similar lines, you also know (or are entitled to know) the following information before you play an appropriate cancellation card (Sudden, Wash, DI, whatever):

- how much blood someone is going to take before your Suddenly Reverse Minion Tap
- what card is being played with Charming Lobby, before you DI the Charming Lobby
- what "X" is, for cards that have a 'cost' of X, such as Lightning Reflexes or Hidden Strength
- what cards are being fetched from the ash heap with Whispers from the Dead

Correct.
You also know how a cost is going to be paid (Ravnos Carnivale, ..), as it is announced when the card is played. [RTR 20111202]