Homunculus and Kindred Society Games

Player 1 has a vampire with Kindred Society Games. Player 2 has a tapped younger vampire with Homunculus. It is Player 1's untap phase. Player 1 announces putting Kindred Society Games on the tapped younger vampire with Homunculus. The vampire with Homunculus burns 1 blood to untap. Per the rulebook, Kindred Society Games can be put on the vampire with Homunculus before burning the blood to untap because Player 1 chooses the order in which the effects happen. Am I correct?


Rulebook:

Any cards or effects that require or allow you to do something during your untap phase take effect after you have untapped your cards. You may choose the order in which these effects take place.

Homunculus

Retainer, Protean
Retainer with 1 life.
[pro] During any Methuselah's untap phase, the vampire with this retainer can burn 1 blood to untap.
[PRO] As above, but Homunculus has 2 life.

Kindred Society Games

Master, Toreador
Master. Put this card on a ready vampire. This vampire doesn't untap as normal. During his or her controller's untap phase, that vampire either puts Society Games on a younger tapped vampire or burns 1 blood to untap. If the vampire choses to move Society Games but there is no tapped younger vampire, Society Games is burned.

TwoRazorReign wrote:

Player 1 has a vampire with Kindred Society Games. Player 2 has a tapped younger vampire with Homunculus. It is Player 1's untap phase. Player 1 announces putting Kindred Society Games on the tapped younger vampire with Homunculus. The vampire with Homunculus burns 1 blood to untap. Per the rulebook, Kindred Society Games can be put on the vampire with Homunculus before burning the blood to untap because Player 1 chooses the order in which the effects happen. Am I correct?

Reading between the lines, are you asking: if the Kindred Society Games gets there first, can the Homunculus vampire still untap or does the KSG prevent them from untapping?

The answer is: Kindred Society Games prevents untapping "as normal", which means the untap that cards would normally do at the start of their controller's untap phase. Spending a blood to untap via Homunculus is not a normal untap, so KSG doesn't prevent it. Similarly, if KSG is on an infernal vampire, that vampire does not untap as normal (section 11 of the rules for the definition of Infernal). However, they can pay a pool to untap in an abnormal way. So KSH isn't very exciting for infernal vampires.

Mind Numb and Sensory Deprivation tend to be the source of rulings here.

[LSJ 20001005]

LSJ wrote:

> So, if a vamp is both Mind Numbed and Deranged (having quite a day), can that
> vamp pay one blood during its untap phase to untap?

Yes. Mind Numb only prevents the minion from untapping as normal during
the untap phase. If the minion has some non-normal means of untapping
during his untap phase (e.g., Derange, Detection, Homunculus, Children of
Osiris, Obsession, Kindred Society Games), then he is free to use that
method.

Note that some cards say "do not untap as normal" and some cards say "do not untap as normal during the untap phase" (or similar), but they both basically mean the same thing - the normal untap is the innate untap in the untap phase. For example, Derange (in the above ruling) only says "does not untap as normal" with no phase restriction, but it works in the same way as Mind Numb.

And assuming you were untapped somehow and took an action, you could play Freak Drive and things that untap you during the action.

Thanks for this. I was more concerned about the movement of Kindred Society Games and if, in this situation, it worked as outlined in the rulebook; namely, whether the player whose turn it is can order the effects.

Since we are talking about Kindred Society Games, Is there something to do about this?

If a vampire has two copies of Kindred Society Games played on it, each copy exerts its own effect on the vampire. Thus, untapping the vampire normally would require the vampire to burn a total of 2 blood. If the vampire does not untap normally, then both Games are moved to other vampire(s), although the vampire could burn 1 blood to prevent one of the Games from moving on. [RTR 19951017]

Nac wrote:

Since we are talking about Kindred Society Games, Is there something to do about this?

If a vampire has two copies of Kindred Society Games played on it, each copy exerts its own effect on the vampire. Thus, untapping the vampire normally would require the vampire to burn a total of 2 blood. If the vampire does not untap normally, then both Games are moved to other vampire(s), although the vampire could burn 1 blood to prevent one of the Games from moving on. [RTR 19951017]

Uhh I don't see any reason why the vampire would need to burn 2 blood to untap. He can just burn 1 blood to untap, and then move the other one to someone else.