file Combat ends with first strike

20 Oct 2016 10:15 - 20 Oct 2016 10:16 #78718 by Bloodartist
So this situation happened yesterday in a local game, and I find it controversial to the rulebook on this site.

Question: Does a strike:combat end when done with first strike resolve earlier than a combat end done normally? And would this cancel the effects of the 'normal' S:CE?

I cant remember the cards used yesterday, but there are various vampire and card abilities that allow striking combat end as first strike (Elimelech the twice-damned, Christopher Houghton etc). The reason it was relevant was because I was trying to S:CE with superior form of mist which apparently got canceled by first striking S:CE.

The rulebook written on this site in my opinion implies that first strike wouldn't matter with S:CE:s, and that they would resolve simultanously before any other strikes? (If two separate strikes are always first to resolve, they resolve simultaneously?). The situation that was ruled out to me makes no sense to me at least in light of the rules on this site.

"Combat Ends. This effect ends combat immediately. This type of strike is always the first to resolve, even before a strike done with first strike, and it ends combat before other strikes or other strike resolution effects are resolved. Combat ends is effective at any range. Combat ends is not affected by a dodge, since dodge only cancels effects that are directed at the dodging minion."

If this is not the case, I suggest editing the rulebook to be more clear on the matter. I am not fond of this games rules favoring exceptions upon exceptions upon exceptions. That way you just get a god-forsaken mess that we currently have.

A heretic is a man who sees with his own eyes.
—Gotthold Ephraim Lessing



Last edit: 20 Oct 2016 10:16 by Bloodartist.

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20 Oct 2016 13:13 - 20 Oct 2016 13:17 #78719 by Ankha
Replied by Ankha on topic Combat ends with first strike

Question: Does a strike:combat end when done with first strike resolve earlier than a combat end done normally? And would this cancel the effects of the 'normal' S:CE?


No, all S:CE resolve at the same time, regardless they have First Strike or not:

First Strike. A strike done with first strike is resolved before a normal strike.
Combat Ends. This effect ends combat immediately. This type of strike is always the first to resolve, even before a strike done with first strike, and it ends combat before other strikes or other strike resolution effects are resolved.


Also, a S:CE by itself can't cancel the effect of another S:CE. The exception is when the additional effects of the two S:CE are in contradiction (for instance, Form of Mist that allows to continue the action vs Blissful Agony that starts a new combat).

Blissful Agony
[ani] Strike: hand strike at +1 damage.
[val] Only usable at close range before strikes are chosen. The opposing minion takes 1 unpreventable damage each round this combat during normal strike resolution at close range. A vampire can play only one Blissful Agony at [val] each combat.
[VAL] Strike: combat ends. Choose a minion controlled by a Methuselah other than the opposing vampire's controller. The opposing vampire and that minion enter combat.

Form of Mist
[pro] Strike: dodge.
[PRO] Strike: combat ends. If this vampire is acting and needs stealth when this strike resolves, he or she can burn 1 blood after combat ends to continue the action at +1 stealth as if unblocked. A vampire can play only one Form of Mist at superior each action.

Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
Last edit: 20 Oct 2016 13:17 by Ankha.
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20 Oct 2016 13:17 - 20 Oct 2016 13:29 #78720 by Bloodartist


No, all S:CE resolve at the same time, regardless they have First Strike or not:


Thank you for this! :) Its nice to actually have a rudimentary understanding of VTES rules after 2 years of play.. Ill let my playgroup know about this for sure.

ps. One thing though for future reference: how would the situation change if either combatant uses a hand strike: combat end? For example anesthetic touch or autonomic mastery? ie. Hand strike:CE vs normal combat end; or hand strike:CE with first strike vs hand strike:CE

A heretic is a man who sees with his own eyes.
—Gotthold Ephraim Lessing



Last edit: 20 Oct 2016 13:29 by Bloodartist.

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20 Oct 2016 15:06 - 20 Oct 2016 15:09 #78721 by Ankha
Replied by Ankha on topic Combat ends with first strike

ps. One thing though for future reference: how would the situation change if either combatant uses a hand strike: combat end? For example anesthetic touch or autonomic mastery? ie. Hand strike:CE vs normal combat end; or hand strike:CE with first strike vs hand strike:CE


There's no such thing as a hand strike: combat ends.

Anesthetic Touch
Only usable at close range.
[aus] Strike: dodge.
[obe] Strike: hand strike. Combat ends immediately after the resolution of this strike.
[OBE] As [obe] above, with first strike.

Autonomic Mastery
Only usable at close range.
[dom] Strike: burn the opposing non-wraith ally or a non-wraith retainer on the opposing minion.
[DOM] Strike: hand strike. This strike inflicts no damage. Combat ends immediately after strike resolution, unless it is dodged. Only usable in combat with a non-wraith ally or a younger.

Both effects are strike: hand strike and are handled accordingly. They don't reach resolution against a S:CE and they have an additional effect which is never resolve neither.

So basically, if A plays a S:CE and B a Anesthetic Touch at superior, A's strike resolves first and B's strike never resolves.

Combat Ends. This effect ends combat immediately. This type of strike is always the first to resolve, even before a strike done with first strike, and it ends combat before other strikes or other strike resolution effects are resolved.


If A plays an Autonomic Mastery and B an Anesthetic Touch at [obe], both strikes resolves simulateanously (A and B suffer strength damage from the opponent) and combat ends after that.
If A plays an Autonomic Mastery and B plays Anesthetic Touch at [OBE], then B's strikes resolves first, inflicting strength damage, and combat ends before A's strike resolves.

Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
Last edit: 20 Oct 2016 15:09 by Ankha.
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