file Still confused about multiple Outside the Hourglasses

29 Sep 2017 14:44 #83676 by Nikolaj
Hi,
We went through the discussions we could find on this on the old google group and the more recent one of this forum, but it isnt clear what the conclusion is regarding this scenario.

Vampire A is acting. Vampire B is blocking. A plays Domain of Evernight, then plays Outside the Hourglass before range on of the first round of combat.
Can vampire B play his own copy of Outside the Hourglass BEFORE dealing with the incoming aggravated damage or can he play it and the the damage resolves for both A and B afterwards?

This thread from 2010 went a bit back and forth it seems groups.google.com/forum/m/#!topic/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/Itzely9s_pc

This thread from 2016 also went back and forth I think because of a misunderstanding, but seemed to end in an open debate and some suggestions.
www.vekn.net/forum/rules-questions/75275-before-range-is-determined

What is the official answer if there is one?


(Sorry, I wanted to include the card texts but on my phone and I couldnt find them, other than ehat is in the threads).

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30 Sep 2017 08:49 - 30 Sep 2017 08:55 #83682 by Ankha

Vampire A is acting. Vampire B is blocking. A plays Domain of Evernight, then plays Outside the Hourglass before range on of the first round of combat.
Can vampire B play his own copy of Outside the Hourglass BEFORE dealing with the incoming aggravated damage or can he play it and the the damage resolves for both A and B afterwards?

The is the official answer: Yes. A and B can play any number of cards or effects before resolving the damage, including another Outside the Hourglass. Here's a few examples:

1: B can play Outside the Hourglass to inflict 2 damage to A. In that case, A and B have each 2 points of damage to handle. The damage prevention steps of A and B's damage are merged together (the same way as the damage of strikes).

2: B can play a Torn Signpost, an Aura Reading, lock the Barrens to discard and draw a card before preventing the damage with a Skin of Rock.

If we compare Weather Control and Outside the Hourglass:

Weather Control's damage can be applied after other effects are played.: A plays WC, then Torn Signpost, then decide to apply WC's damage. Outside the Hourglass immediately opens a prevention window
A can't pass before applying the damage of Weather Control (which opens a prevention window)
Weather Control's damage is "environmental". Outside the Hourglass' damage is dealt by the minion.

Both cards are very similar otherwise.

Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
Last edit: 30 Sep 2017 08:55 by Ankha.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Khaan

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30 Dec 2022 09:58 #107112 by AaronC
I know this is a necro post, but I just played a game against Outside the Hourglass.

I have assumed that damage dealt during the "before range" step was resolved immediately after it was declared. But here you are saying that:

"The damage prevention steps of A and B's damage are merged together (the same way as the damage of strikes)."

This is a newly-created rule as far as I can tell. The rulebook simply says that cards or effects are played in "before range" step. I always thought "played" meant resolved immediately after declared.

This rule means "Before range" has a hidden "Damage Resolution" step at the end. I guess the rationale is that damage dealing and damage resolution have to be separate so that damage prevention can be used in an unambiguous timing window.

You could equally have ruled that Damage Resolution occurs immediately after each damage dealing event in the "Before Range" step. I presume you chose this option as being more balanced for the non-acting player.

Does this mean that the other steps (Press, End of Round) also handle damage with this same timing?

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31 Dec 2022 11:29 - 31 Dec 2022 11:36 #107114 by Ankha

I know this is a necro post, but I just played a game against Outside the Hourglass.

I have assumed that damage dealt during the "before range" step was resolved immediately after it was declared. But here you are saying that:

"The damage prevention steps of A and B's damage are merged together (the same way as the damage of strikes)."

In that scenario, A and B both played Outside the Hourglass before range.

I always thought "played" meant resolved immediately after declared.

Yes. OtH inflicts damage immediately. But this opens a damage prevention window, during which you can play plenty of effects.

This rule means "Before range" has a hidden "Damage Resolution" step at the end.

No, not at the end, but as soon as damage is inflicted.

You could equally have ruled that Damage Resolution occurs immediately after each damage dealing event in the "Before Range" step.

This is the case. But if additional damage is dealt during the Damage Resolution, then the new Damage Resolution window that should open is instead merged with the current one.

Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
Last edit: 31 Dec 2022 11:36 by Ankha.

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15 Jan 2023 08:38 #107196 by AaronC
I've been reading through LSJ's and RTR's rulings on this, and it's surprising. I see that in the past others like me (including LSJ himself, briefly groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/2yQ77GFyI-o/m/P_9Vt6vRbHEJ) assumed that the first Outside the Hourglass would end combat by sending the opposing vampire to torpor before they could play effects.

You say (sorry don't know how to do the split quotes):
In that scenario, A and B both played Outside the Hourglass before range.

That is technically true, but what has happened is that Player B has played his Outside the Hourglass during Player A's impulse. Because of a previous ruling (groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/WUWh7AdooDU/m/vojisZMCSnsJ), if Player A plays a damaging effect in the pre-range step, Player B gets to jump the line, so to speak. Player B can play any and all of his pre-range effects DURING Player A's impulse between Player A's damaging effect and damage resolution. The ruling specifically mentions Aura Reading being played during this window, and that has the same timing window as other pre-range effects, including Outside the Hourglass.

I cannot find a ruling that specifically says that damage from Player A's effect and damage from Player B's effect, played during Player A's impulse, should be resolved simultaneously in a "merged" damage resolution. The rulings seem to suggest that Player A could order his own damage resolution when he chooses, but perhaps I'm missing something.

Right now the order looks something like this:
-Player A plays Outside the Hourglass
-Player A decides that Player B's Damage Resolution can occur
-Player B plays multiple effects, including Outside the Hourglass
-Player A's Damage Resolution from Player B's Outside the Hourglass occurs
-Player A plays multiple effects (because effects can always be played at this time according to the ruling)
- Player A and Player B both "handle" the damage from the respective OtH's that were played on them (the "Merged" damage resolution)
-Assuming both vampires are ready, Player A continues to play effects
-Player A passes the impulse to Player B.

In practice, only the "handling" of the damage can be merged, as Player A must have a chance to play effects between being damaged and handling the damage.

You also said that damage is resolved as soon as it is inflicted. That contradicts previous rulings that said that the damage is resolved when the acting vampire chooses, like here groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/f7Xa61O5JKA/m/_cPhJ9z7k88J . In theory Player A could play Outside the Hourglass, THEN Torn Signpost, and THEN decide it was time to resolve the damage from Outside the Hourglass (don't know why you'd want to, but this is VTES.)

Not that you've asked for my opinion, but my opinion is that this is unnecessarily complicated.

One practical issue is that "Damage Resolution" has now been enshrined in the rulebook as its own step of combat, which is separate from the Before Range step. The rulebook says that "the minion taking damage can play combat cards that prevent damage." To an inexperienced person, that sounds like the only thing you can do during this step is to play cards that prevent damage, and not other cards. (Of course, we know that you can use any effect whose combat timing is not otherwise restrained, especially effects that alter damage that is already dealt) It is a little strange that there is a step called Damage Resolution that occurs after the Strike step, but also that "damage resolution" occurs within other steps.

I would ask you to consider changing the ruling about effects that can be played before the resolution of damage inflicted outside of Step 4, Strikes and Step 5, Damage Resolution. It would be more intuitive and less confusing (and closer to the rulebook) if only damage prevention and alteration could be played in response to damage inflicted outside of Step 4.

Not only that, but it is contrary to the simulation of the World of Darkness. If a vampire is struck by a blow or damaging effect, they don't have time invoke a variety of exotic abilities (in other words, abilities not related to healing or damage prevention) before their wounds appear. If the logic of the card game follows the logic of the simulated world, it is is easier to understand and enjoy.

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16 Jan 2023 10:05 - 16 Jan 2023 10:07 #107203 by Ankha

I've been reading through LSJ's and RTR's rulings on this, and it's surprising. I see that in the past others like me (including LSJ himself, briefly groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/2yQ77GFyI-o/m/P_9Vt6vRbHEJ) assumed that the first Outside the Hourglass would end combat by sending the opposing vampire to torpor before they could play effects.

You say (sorry don't know how to do the split quotes):
In that scenario, A and B both played Outside the Hourglass before range.

That is technically true, but what has happened is that Player B has played his Outside the Hourglass during Player A's impulse. Because of a previous ruling (groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/WUWh7AdooDU/m/vojisZMCSnsJ), if Player A plays a damaging effect in the pre-range step, Player B gets to jump the line, so to speak. Player B can play any and all of his pre-range effects DURING Player A's impulse

The impulse is not a time period. Whoever has the impulse is the next to play or pass for sequencing matter.

between Player A's damaging effect and damage resolution. The ruling specifically mentions Aura Reading being played during this window, and that has the same timing window as other pre-range effects, including Outside the Hourglass.

I cannot find a ruling that specifically says that damage from Player A's effect and damage from Player B's effect, played during Player A's impulse, should be resolved simultaneously in a "merged" damage resolution.

This is the ruling: www.vekn.net/forum/rules-questions/76197-still-confused-about-multiple-outside-the-hourglasses#83682

You also said that damage is resolved as soon as it is inflicted. That contradicts previous rulings that said that the damage is resolved when the acting vampire chooses, like here groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/f7Xa61O5JKA/m/_cPhJ9z7k88J .

The resolution of OtH is to inflict damage. The resolution of Weather Control is to create a delayed effect that inflicts damage "before range is determined". Those are not the same.

In theory Player A could play Outside the Hourglass, THEN Torn Signpost, and THEN decide it was time to resolve the damage from Outside the Hourglass (don't know why you'd want to, but this is VTES.)

No, you have to resolve OtH before playing other cards, and OtH inflicts damage.

One practical issue is that "Damage Resolution" has now been enshrined in the rulebook as its own step of combat, which is separate from the Before Range step. The rulebook says that "the minion taking damage can play combat cards that prevent damage." To an inexperienced person, that sounds like the only thing you can do during this step is to play cards that prevent damage, and not other cards. (Of course, we know that you can use any effect whose combat timing is not otherwise restrained, especially effects that alter damage that is already dealt) It is a little strange that there is a step called Damage Resolution that occurs after the Strike step, but also that "damage resolution" occurs within other steps.

I would ask you to consider changing the ruling about effects that can be played before the resolution of damage inflicted outside of Step 4, Strikes and Step 5, Damage Resolution. It would be more intuitive and less confusing (and closer to the rulebook) if only damage prevention and alteration could be played in response to damage inflicted outside of Step 4.

It's not was decided, and would bring confusion as why you can't try to draw prevent cards with a Barrens when inflicted damage (which was the point of this decision).

Not only that, but it is contrary to the simulation of the World of Darkness. If a vampire is struck by a blow or damaging effect, they don't have time invoke a variety of exotic abilities (in other words, abilities not related to healing or damage prevention) before their wounds appear. If the logic of the card game follows the logic of the simulated world, it is is easier to understand and enjoy.

The rules must be consistent from a game perspective, not from a lore perspective. Dogs can ride stunt cycles and shoot with guns in VTES.

Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
Last edit: 16 Jan 2023 10:07 by Ankha.

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