file House of Sorrow, tapping cards to get effects, and the "During X, do Y" wording

15 Apr 2018 11:43 #86240 by hardyrange
Hello all,

this came up in a game yesterday:

A player uses the effect of a card in play that has the wording "Lock during your [whatever] phase to [do some effect]." (The concrete case was The Parthenon, but there are other cards with similar wording...)

Then, she untaps that card, using House of Sorrow.

Can the first card now be locked again immediately in the same phase, to achieve the effect a second time, or would this be prohibited by the "During X, do Y" wording (as described in the rulebook, www.vekn.net/rulebook/11-special-terms )?


Parthenon, The, Master, 2 pool, V3 , [AH:V3, FN:PG, LoB:PA, Third:U]
Master: unique location. Tap during your master phase to get an additional master phase action.

House of Sorrow, Master, 1 pool, Promo , [Promo-20081119]
Master: unique location. Tap to untap any card you control that is not a minion. If you do so, neither that card nor this location untap as normal on your next untap phase.

“During X, do Y”: The “during X do Y” template is used in several cards. When this template is used, only one Y can be done per X with this card. For instance, you may move blood from your vampire to your pool with Vessel only once per unlock phase.

"It was a perfect plan - until it had contact with reality"
---
Hardy Range
Playgroup Council Chairman Bochum

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15 Apr 2018 14:37 #86245 by jamesatzephyr

hardyrange wrote: Can the first card now be locked again immediately in the same phase, to achieve the effect a second time, or would this be prohibited by the "During X, do Y" wording (as described in the rulebook, www.vekn.net/rulebook/11-special-terms )?


If it uses the During X, Do Y template, it can only be used once per X, even if untapped a second time.

[LSH 20090828]

LSJ wrote: >>> I'd just like a quick check on whether The Parthenon (and cards with
>>> similar wordings) can be used twice during the same turn (or
>>> referendum in the case of Ventrue Headquarters etc.).
>> Yes, if they have a Tap To condition.
>
> They have a "during X, tap to gain Y" condition, which usually means
> you can only use them once each X. That restriction seems to apply to
> Enkil Cog as well:
> groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/5dd172e0dc4d61e5

Correct.

groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/828a92eba9618e94

>> See also:
>> Heidelberg Castle, Germany + House of Sorrows
>>
>> Heidelberg Castle, Germany
>> Master
>> [2 Pool]
>> Master: unique location.
>> Tap to move blood, equipment cards and/or retainers between any two
>> ready vampires you control. (You choose the amount of blood you move
>> and which cards you transfer.) Cannot be used during an action.
>
> Heidelberg doesn't have the "during" part which Parthenon and Ventrue
> HQ has though.

Correct.

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15 Apr 2018 22:44 #86250 by Boris The Blade
The "During X, do Y" template should probably be updated to "Once during X, do Y." 4 letters to remove a lot ambiguity seems like a good deal.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Lönkka, Kraus

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16 Apr 2018 06:53 #86251 by Lönkka
House of Sorrows seems to make very few cards work during the same turn. Then again, if it enables you to use that card on another player's turn, the situation might be a bit better (like use intercept location during your prey's turn and then again during your predator's turn.)

Not sure if it work as intended as I seem to remember that LSJ's comments were bit conflicting during the release time...

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16 Apr 2018 13:05 - 16 Apr 2018 13:12 #86253 by TwoRazorReign

Boris The Blade wrote: The "During X, do Y" template should probably be updated to "Once during X, do Y." 4 letters to remove a lot ambiguity seems like a good deal.


I'd argue that your proposed change isn't clarifying anything at all. Doing only one Y during a given X is already explained in the template. The reason for ambiguity is that the "During X, do Y" template is poorly implemented.

First, why is "X" and "Y" used? "X" and "Y" are not defined in the template, so one always has to use context to define what "X" and "Y" is. But "X" is always a time point, and "Y" is always an effect. Why not just use these words instead of using "X" and "Y"? Using non-specific terms such as "X" and "Y" may be reasonable for the people codifying the rules for this game to give designers a non-specific template to design cards around, but it is not ideal for the general audience of VTES players to understand the rules. Real terms are needed in the rulebook for the players to understand.

Second, and more specific to the House of Sorrow/Parthenon interaction posed earlier in this thread, the ambiguity is more a product of how unlocking is explained and understood by players and that the "During X, do Y" template overrides this fundamental understanding. We have in the rulebook the following:

"Unlocking a card restores it to its original position, indicating that the card is reset and will be able to be locked again later"

One of the first things a VTES player learns is that unlocking a card "resets" it. This is the default that the "During X, do Y" overrides. In other words, The Parthenon is not reset when it is unlocked by House of Sorrow, because, following the template, only one effect granted by the Parthenon can happen during a master phase. The problem is, the default is so fundamental to the understanding of how unlocking works, it will take much more than a wording template buried in section 11 of the rulebook that obliquely explains when an unlocked card does not reset, especially when that template uses the undefined integers "X" and "Y".

One way to ameliorate the ambiguity brought about by the House of Sorrow/Parthenon interaction is to have the card text on House of Sorrow reference the wording template in the rulebook:

"Lock to unlock any card you control that is not a minion (follow the "During X, do Y" wording template). If you do so, neither that card nor this location unlock as normal on your next unlock phase."

This would essentially force the player to stop and go read the wording template that overrides the default understanding of how unlocking works. Note that this would be similar to how Madness Network references the sequencing rules in the rulebook.

"Put this card in play. Unlocked Malkavians can take actions in any Methuselah's minion phase (follow normal sequencing rules). Any minion can burn this card as an action that any unlocked Malkavian (in addition to the normally eligible blockers) can attempt to block."
Last edit: 16 Apr 2018 13:12 by TwoRazorReign.

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