file Frenzy cards and targeting / "play on --"

10 Feb 2019 09:35 - 10 Feb 2019 09:51 #93384 by Kraus
I tried to look through frenzy cards and their cancel effects, like Aye and most abombwe reflex cards.

Aye and the :abo: :reflex: templating say:

Name: Aye
[LoB:C, EK:C½]
Cardtype: Master
Master: trifle.
Put this card on a Laibon. This Laibon may lock this card to cancel a Frenzy card played on him or her as it is played. This Laibon may burn a blood and lock three of his or her Aye to be able to play reaction cards and attempt to block as if unlocked for the current action. If this Laibon burns a minion, equipment, or location in play, he or she burns one Aye. Burn this card if this Laibon has more Orun and Aye than his or her capacity.
Artist: Brad Williams

Emphasis mine.

I couldn't find any other offensively used Frenzy card that would be played 'on' the target, other than Rötschreck:

Name: Rötschreck
[Jyhad:U, CE:U, Anarchs:PG, BH:PTr2, KMW:PB, LoB:PA, Third:PTz]
Cardtype: Master
Master: out-of-turn. Frenzy.
Put this card on a vampire when an opposing minion attempts to inflict aggravated damage on him or her, whether the damage would be successfully inflicted or not. Combat ends. This vampire is locked and sent to torpor. This vampire does not unlock as normal. During this vampire's next unlock phase, burn this card.
Artist: Mike Danza

I gather that I can't use :abo: reflexes or Aye to cancel Deep Song, Terror Frenzy or Frenzy?

Name: Deep Song
[KoT:C/A2, HttB:PSam2, Anthology:4, SP:DoF4]
Cardtype: Action
Discipline: Animalism
[ani] (D) Bleed with +1 bleed.
[ANI] Frenzy. (D) Enter combat with and lock a vampire. That vampire is considered the acting minion in that combat.
Artist: Jeremy McHugh

Name: Terror Frenzy
[Sabbat:R, SW:R, FN:PR, CE:PN, LoB:PG]
Cardtype: Combat
Cost: 1 blood
Discipline: Animalism
[ani] Only usable before range is determined on the first round. During this combat, the opposing minion cannot use maneuvers to maneuver to close range, cannot use presses to continue combat and cannot use equipment.
[ANI] Only usable before range is determined. Combat cards cost the opposing vampire an additional blood this combat. A vampire may play only one Terror Frenzy at superior each combat.
Artist: Jeff Klimek

Name: Frenzy
[Jyhad:C, VTES:C, CE:C, Anarchs:PG, LoB:PO, Third:C]
Cardtype: Master
Master: out-of-turn. Frenzy.
Only usable before range is chosen. Choose a vampire in combat. In this round, that vampire cannot use equipment and cannot use presses to end combat. This round has a press, only usable to continue combat.
Artist: Pete Venters

Or, in other words, is there another card you could/would like to cancel with Aye/Aboflex than Rötschreck?

I suppose 'play on' and 'targeting' are different things.

"Oh, to the Hades with the manners! He's a complete bastard, and calling him that insults bastards everywhere!"
-Nalia De-Arnise

Facebook @ VtES: Joensuu
Last edit: 10 Feb 2019 09:51 by Kraus.

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10 Feb 2019 09:56 #93385 by Ankha

LSJ wrote: Chris Berger wrote:
> Apologies if this has been asked before, but I wasn't able to find
> anything on a google search. Several cards now have the ability to
> cancel a frenzy card played "on" a vampire. My question is, what
> constitutes "played on" a vampire?
> It seems like it's reasonable to make a "common sense" judgement on
> most (if not all) of the current cards, but is there a hard and fast
> rule? If I'm in combat and I play Drawing Out the Beast, that prevents
> you from doing some stuff and gives you +1 hand damage. That affects
> your vampire and you can play a reflex that cancels frenzy to stop it.

> If I play Devil Channel: Hands to do agg damage, even though it affects
> your vampire (adversely!), it doesn't *directly* affect him, and so I
> believe it can only be cancelled by a Tranquility (or can be cancelled
> by the methuselah that controls the Akunanse that's using DC:H).
Correct. D-C: Hands does not affect the opposing minion.

> But what about something like Devil Channel: Throat. This is a frenzy
> card that cancels a blocking attempt and taps the blocking minion.
> Using WoD logic, I believe this card is considered to be directly
> affecting the acting minion, and only cancellable by him. Simply going
> from card text, I think it's impossible to tell if it frenzies the
> acting minion or frenzies the blocking minion. Could it be cancelled
For Devil-Channel: Throat, where the case is ambiguous as to
which minion it is being played on, the ambiguity is clarified
by explicit card text: "Frenzy (played on this acting vampire)."

> by a reflex that cancels frenzy? More generally, is there an easy way
> to tell when a card is "played on" an opposing/blocking minion, and
> when it's "played on" the minion that's playing it?
If the frenzy card targets/selects/chooses/affects the minion when
played, then it is being played on the minion.
If explicit card text
specifies on which minion the card is played, use the explicit
card text.

Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
The following user(s) said Thank You: Kraus

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10 Feb 2019 09:56 #93386 by Timo
It seems that 'play on' and 'targeting' are the same.

And you can cancel any Frenzy card played against a vampire with aye or :abo: reflex cards...

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10 Feb 2019 11:27 #93387 by Bloodartist

Timo wrote: It seems that 'play on' and 'targeting' are the same.

And you can cancel any Frenzy card played against a vampire with aye or :abo: reflex cards...

So yes, you can cancel deep song rush on your minion with a reflex card. Its just the inconsistent wordings that confuses people. "Targeting" and "target" are used very sparingly in VTES, possibly to avoid drawing comparisons to Magic the gathering. But this has led to the current situation of wildly inconsistent card texts.

"If a man wanders into a tiger's domain, it may result in his being devoured.
And so it has."
-- Pisha, VtM:B

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